I once was at a brunch for a GOVERNMENT AGENCY where they said grace before the brunch!

I'm at a state university and this happens all the time. Drives me bonkers but I'm not sure I've actually complained. I did offer feedback to a presenter recently that he ought not to include religious themes (Xmas) in his PowerPoint clipart. Other themes included b-ball and soccer, and no, they weren't relevant. And yes, he explicitly drew attention to them. It was a little slice of The Office.

I guess I'm not sure how to discuss non-belief without using some term of magic, superstition or myth.

Saying the words of the prayers, I guess.

There has to be more to it than that. Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

I guess I'm not sure how to discuss non-belief without using some term of magic, superstition or myth

I'm not telling you what words you can and can't use. I just wanted to point out the risk that you're equating Jesus belief with belief in Zeus or rabbits out of hats or not walking under ladders might be completely equivalent to you, the Christians listening to you might be hearing very different things. Because myth, magic, and superstition apply to those examples precisely.

In a discussion as personal as belief and non-belief, it's clear that people who respect each other's viewpoints aren't even pulling from the same lexicon.

I don't know. My grandmother was Orthodox. She went to synagogue every week, and sometimes on weekdays, too. She said the prayers over the Shabbat candles and holiday candles and food and everything else you're supposed to pray over. And according to my mother, she didn't believe in God. I don't know what she was thinking about when she prayed, but I would definitely say that she was praying. So, reciting the words at the appropriate time and place? I'm not sure.

Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

Well, according to P-C's mom, those mantras are supposed to work whether he believes in them or not.

Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

"Don't read Latin in front of the books, Xander."

I think there needs to be some sort of intent behind the words, but the intent won't always be the same from pray-er to pray-er. If I were to actually pray with the Lord's prayer, I might be communing with God and hoping he'll forgive some really significant trespasses, while reminding myself that I need to do the same. Another person who is worried about their job might be focusing on the daily bread portion, and so on. Everyone might be saying the same words, at the same time, but each person's intent would be different.

I used to recite the Lord's prayer often at the appopriate time and place. I was never praying. Just going along with the flow until I got ornery/old/resilient enough to stand there silently.

I didn't think you or anyone was trying to tell me which words. Just trying to 'splain the difficulty in communicating without using those.

In a discussion as personal as belief and non-belief, it's clear that people who respect each other's viewpoints aren't even pulling from the same lexicon.

This very much.

I'm not overly invested in a definition of prayer. I just need one we can agree on or any discussion we might have feels like sand.

I've probably quoted this before, but when Carl Sagan died, a reporter asked his wife about Sagan's atheism. The reporter said, "But didn't he want to believe?" Her reply: "No. He wanted to know." I have seen religious faith sustain people through troubled times and inspire people to great things. I just happen to be the sort of person who needs to know.

I do get irritated with people who ascribe a medical cure, for example, entirely to god, without any acknowledgment of the researchers and medical personnel who did the hard lifting. I have pretty strong feelings about abundance theology. I never think less of people for believing in god; I do think less of people for believing in creationism.