I think I'm having trouble communicating because I really am trying not to offend.

I engage in magical thinking when I indulge little superstitions about football. I am pretending (because I understand they are superstitions) that I am exerting some control over the game/my team. Prayer is that, but about life. There is nothing wrong with that.

What definition of prayer would you use, Hil?

I mean, yeah, this country being what it is that's going to be fine for the majority of people on the receiving end. But you know, for some it's not, and the assumption that Christmas and Christianity are blanketly applicable to all is something I just can't stop objecting to.

A few years ago, my mother found some "send stuff to the troops" website where you could look at profiles of the different units and what they said they needed, and she found a few with Jewish soldiers who said they needed matzo, since it was getting close to Passover, and she organized a few friends to put together Passover care packages, with matzo plus all sorts of kosher for Passover goodies, to send to those soldiers.

But isn't superstition a loaded term? Isn't that something we're all supposed to know is fake? As is myth? I also think that in common parlance we're supposed to accept that about magic. Not religion. To the outsider the practice or beliefs might look equivalent, but I think each term is accorded different weight and respect.

What definition of prayer would you use, Hil?

Saying the words of the prayers, I guess. I mean, if someone is in synagogue and reading the siddur and reciting the prayers, I'm not going to say that that person's not praying because he or she isn't thinking the right thoughts to go along with it.

I once was at a brunch for a GOVERNMENT AGENCY where they said grace before the brunch!

I'm at a state university and this happens all the time. Drives me bonkers but I'm not sure I've actually complained. I did offer feedback to a presenter recently that he ought not to include religious themes (Xmas) in his PowerPoint clipart. Other themes included b-ball and soccer, and no, they weren't relevant. And yes, he explicitly drew attention to them. It was a little slice of The Office.

I guess I'm not sure how to discuss non-belief without using some term of magic, superstition or myth.

Saying the words of the prayers, I guess.

There has to be more to it than that. Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

I guess I'm not sure how to discuss non-belief without using some term of magic, superstition or myth

I'm not telling you what words you can and can't use. I just wanted to point out the risk that you're equating Jesus belief with belief in Zeus or rabbits out of hats or not walking under ladders might be completely equivalent to you, the Christians listening to you might be hearing very different things. Because myth, magic, and superstition apply to those examples precisely.

In a discussion as personal as belief and non-belief, it's clear that people who respect each other's viewpoints aren't even pulling from the same lexicon.

I don't know. My grandmother was Orthodox. She went to synagogue every week, and sometimes on weekdays, too. She said the prayers over the Shabbat candles and holiday candles and food and everything else you're supposed to pray over. And according to my mother, she didn't believe in God. I don't know what she was thinking about when she prayed, but I would definitely say that she was praying. So, reciting the words at the appropriate time and place? I'm not sure.