But also, someone who says something like "prayer is real" is usually talking about their own prayer, while someone who says "prayer is magical thinking" is usually talking about someone else's prayer. It's analyzing not just what the person is doing, but what the person is thinking. Saying "Someone who believes that God will immediately respond to each prayer and grant the petitioner's request is engaging in magical thinking" is different than saying "Someone who prays is engaging in magical thinking."

You may consider prayer, the idea of Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit to be "magical," but the people who believe in them do not consider them to be "magic," and to suggest that is just as disrespectful as Christians expecting atheists to get on board with the godhood of Christ.

So (and I ask this as a person who was raised by atheists, and is thus somewhat sympathetic to their position), do you wish the atheists around you to lie about their world view? Because that's what it sounds like. To my parents, prayer and divinity are magical thinking, unsupported by evidence and science.

So, is it okay for Christians to tell non-Christians they're going to burn in hell? Because to not do so would be lying about their world view.

You don't think there's middle ground, where a person can talk about his/her belief system without saying things that are disrespectful of other faiths?

Is there any way to talk about atheism honestly without "disrespecting" religion at some level?

Why the scare quotes? I'm just curious.

while someone who says "prayer is magical thinking" is usually talking about someone else's prayer.

Or, more usually, responding to a question about why they don't pray. It's rarely an unsolicited comment.

I definitely see your point, maybe intent is the key here. A atheist who says "prayer is magical thinking" knows and either intends to or doesn't care about offending the believer, while saying "prayer is real" is not intended to offend.

And I say "no, it's not" or even "no, I don't think so" and I might as well have smacked someone's mother.

Why the scare quotes? I'm just curious.

Because of the double-standard I mentioned a few posts ago - statements describing atheism are frequently interpreted as rude/disrespectful where an equivalent statement of religious belief would be interpreted as neutral. Who decides?

Random link completely unrelated to anything: [link]

is it okay for Christians to tell non-Christians they're going to burn in hell? Because to not do so would be lying about their world view

Context is key. I had a friend tell me that she believed I'd burn in hell, but that it was my choice and she didn't want to push anything on me. I had absolutely no problem with that. If I get it unsolicited from a stranger, on a picket sign or the like, no, get away. That's rude and disrespectful.

There are absolutely times when "Prayer is real" is used as an attack on people who don't pray. And sometimes it's an expression of intimate personal belief. You can't draw a box around the statement and decide it's only good for one context.

Random link completely unrelated to anything:

KITTEH!

I work really hard to prioritise the religious aspects of the holiday, as the rest doesn't make much sense for me (except seeing family, which is great, but my father regularly goes on vacation at that time of year anyway). This year we're driving to my mother's to get there in the afternoon on Christmas day, so we can get to midnight mass before and I can still get enough sleep to cope with the drive. If I can balance seeing family with religious stuff and ignore the rest, I am a happy bunny.

It's funny--I'm doing just the opposite. I've been a Pagan for years now, but I really enjoy the ritual around my former church's Christmas eve service. My sister, a conservative Christian, goes to a church that doesn't do much of anything on Christmas eve or day, and getting her to find and take me to a local congregation that's doing something would be a huge hassle. And she has enough hassle in her life these days, so I'll give it a pass. I'm gonna miss it.

But also, someone who says something like "prayer is real" is usually talking about their own prayer, while someone who says "prayer is magical thinking" is usually talking about someone else's prayer.

I think that prayer is magical thinking, but then I think that performing magic is an act of prayer. When I kneel before my altar, invoke a Goddess and/or God from my pantheon, and perform actions or speak ritual words to achieve a change in me or the world around me, I'm both praying and engaging in magic. When my sister is kneeling in her holy place, invoking her God or His Son, and speaking ritual words to achieve a change in her or the world around her, I think she's doing the same thing. I don't bring this up to her unsolicited because I don't try to make her unhappy for no good reason, but if she ever brought up "magic is bad" around me, I'd do so in a heartbeat.

Saying prayer is real can only be read as not intended to offend if you assume religion as the default state of humanity. It's a function of religious privilege in that respect.

I disagree. The assumption that religion as the default state isn't relevant here. If I say that fairies are real, I don't think that it's offensive to someone who doesn't believe in fairies.

I really don't think I could disagree more. The assumption (from one side only, I might add) that the intent of the other is to offend is exactly where the double standard comes in. One side is expected to walk on eggshells and the other side is not.

I think that it's generally accepted knowledge that referring to prayer as "magical thinking" can be seen as offensive to believers. While the person may not intend to offend, they know that they might. Someone who professes their religion is often unaware that they might offend. For example, it irritates me that some people say goodbye by saying "have a blessed day", but I'm not offended by it. I'm irritated that they try to lump me under whatever religious umbrella that they have, but I don't think that they intend to offend me.