I can't type and phrase myself as fast as you people, so I'm at least a step behind.

I would find it arrogant for the scientist to tell the person who almost died that they could not possibly have experienced what they claim to have experienced.

Would you find it arrogant of the supports of the Muslim culture center next to Ground Zero to tell those who oppose it that they're wrong in their views? Or the ones who think that Obama is Muslim? Again, these are the dangers of taking things at face value. I'd prefer to question some convenient truths than to sit and smile in dankness.

So, if someone who has never given birth thinks childbirth can't be beautiful, despite being described as such by women who actually gave birth, then I'm going to have a problem with that.

We agree on that. But it seems to me like you're sticking to the point where my views contradicting others' experiences. Which is not what it's about. It's about settling A and B, which seem contradicting to me, taking in to account their experiences. It's not that They're Wrong and That's It. It's the Why They Think/Act So? I Think I Have An Explanation. And any analysis which will ignore that this experience isn't beautiful due to personal view will be flawed. It'll just try to explain why it seem at beautiful, from another angle.

Again, I'd ask the woman who gave birth instead of someone who had never gone through it.

I've heard from several women who've given birth. I don't think asking, say, an obstetrician who can tell me how often s/he's had to perform an episiotomy, what kind of pain medications have been asked for, how much blood loss can be expected, and how many new mothers report symptoms of post-partum depression, is unreasonable. Whether or not the obstetrician has given birth. One mom--mine for example--may report that having children ruined her life. Others report rather different experiences. I think getting the perspective of objective observers can be valuable in this area.

If someone chooses adoption rather than pregnancy based on a worry that giving birth is painful, I would strongly advise them to think long and hard about whether they want to be raising a child at all.

Someone may also be choosing whether or not to have an abortion, and the level of pain during childbirth may be a non-trivial part of that decision.

And {{Seska}}. Listen to The Girl.

Would you find it arrogant of the supports of the Muslim culture center next to Ground Zero to tell those who oppose it that they're wrong in their views? Or the ones who think that Obama is Muslim?

How is either of these examples comparable to what we're discussing?

Would you find it arrogant of the supports of the Muslim culture center next to Ground Zero to tell those who oppose it that they're wrong in their views? Or the ones who think that Obama is Muslim?

I would want to know if the person's lived experience is that a Muslim cultural center has in fact caused strife and chaos in their own personal life. I would want to know if Obama's religion has caused strife and chaos to them personally.

If, however, as I strongly suspect is true in 99.9% of the cases, Muslim cultural centers and/or Obama's faith life has not affected their very own personal lived experience, then I'm going to discount their rantings, yeah.

How is either of these examples comparable to what we're discussing?

We're discussing beliefs and feelings. If someone who lost anyone on 9/11 feels like the building of the center is inappropriate, why should his/her opinion count less than a mother who gave birth or a about-to-die person who's convinced he saw his late beloveds? According to what I understood of Steph's reasoning, we should listen to them first, and ignore all "objective"/other points of view, because they know what it's all about.

How is either of these examples comparable to what we're discussing?

Thank you. I was going to say that.

I would want to know if the person's lived experience is that a Muslim cultural center has in fact caused strife and chaos in their own personal life. I would want to know if Obama's religion has caused strife and chaos to them personally.

And I would like to know how pain can be considered as beautiful. So I can ask athletes, and mothers who gave birth, and don't-know-who-else about it. It's not that I'm trying to ignore their views and experiences - on the contrary - I'm trying to see another way of looking into it, through their eyes, but in my words, my reasoning. Why do you think it's wrong if it helps me to understand them better?

If someone who lost anyone on 9/11 feels like the building of the center is inappropriate, why should his/her opinion count less than a mother who gave birth or a about-to-die person who's convinced he saw his late beloveds? According to what I understood of Steph's reasoning, we should listen to them first, and ignore all "objective"/other points of view, because they know what it's all about.

9/11 was an experience shared by millions of people, and the Park51 center is likewise a construction project which will affect an entire neighborhood. Opposition to it comes with rhetoric that affects all American Muslims. The question of "is it right?" is not only a personal/emotional one, but a legal question as well.

Giving birth happens to exactly two people, and only one of them will be able to remember or describe it afterwards.

It's comparing apples to desk lamps.

[eta: And the question of "Is Obama a Muslim?" is even more irrelevant, since it's not even remotely a matter of opinion. It's like asking "Is Obama twelve feet tall?"]