Probably viral, bt. I hope oit clears up, poor noodle.

Well, that's an alternative, but a real possibility.

Probably not. Though remember, Israel came into existence through being granted land. If the a Democratic secular state had been what the newly formed Un granted instead of two gerrymandered States, might both the Zionists and Palestians accepted it.

But probably not possible. No, as I said the real possibility was immigration into the U.S. - if a push for that had been made equal to the push for creating Israel then all the Jews who sent to Israel could have been admitted to the U.S. I admit part of my bias is that this would have made the U.S. a better place than today.

But sooner or later, everyone pays a price - life isn't fair, and especially wasn't fair at that time.

At the same time I've heard you complain about unfairness to Israel of various positions, double standards and stuff. So this particular unfairness needs to be dismissed as "life is unfair"? I mean one of the problems is that in much of the debate, it is part of the Israeli Peace camp position (not you, but much of the 'moderate left') that basically the Palestinians were the bad guys opposing Jewish immigration into Palestine and the formation of the State of Israel and Israel, not being saints, over reacted to Palestinian criminality, but really who can blame them. And for the sake of peace, the moderate Israeli peace movement is willing to forgive the Palestinians their crimes and give more concessions that reasonable (any) in return for their promising and giving concrete guarantees that they will never ever commit such crimes against Israel again. So it seems to me that part of making peace is acknowledging that formation of Israel was a crime, one that could not be reversed at this point without committing worse crimes but nonetheless a crime. And a peace process will also require Palestinian acknowledgment that much of their resistance to Israeli crimes took the form of crimes. I honestly that whatever think hope of peace there is will have to include both sides facing the trauma's that the other side has suffered, that both the foundation of Israel and the 67 war (not started by the Palestinians) were catastrophes for the Palestinians and that when they refer to them as catastrophes this is a simple statement of fact. And the Palestinians need to understand and acknowledge that all the attacks on Israeli civilians over the decades (especially those on children) were not heroic resistance but criminal acts, and that it is not unjustified for these things to terrify Israelis and make them distrustful. I think it is a fundamental part of reconciliation between angry parties that at some point both sides have to acknowledge the legitimacy of one anothers anger.

The problem with arguing that Israel should never have been formed is that, equally, the Brits should never have gone into Ireland and the Americans should never have taken land from the native Americans. But today's Northern Irish are not expected to leave Ireland - they live there - and today's USA is not going to hand back enormous tracts of land to native Americans - they live there.

I don't fully understand the politics, but I know that the creation of the State of Israel was set up not just between the British (and allies) and the Jews, but also the way was paved for it as far back as the British Mandate (I believe the UK is responsible for a sizeable majority of political problems in the world today) and the way the Brits left, the Turkish Mandate before that, and a whole lot of political wrangling and even the Crusades before that. We're talking a lot of history that a lot of people don't take into account. (And also let's try not to forget that six million Jews had just been massacred when Israel was created.)

It's also worth remembering the the UN voted overwhelmingly for the creation of the State of Israel, the British left it in a mess, the Arab nations - with armies - attacked the day after the state was created, and it was all downhill from there. The people of Israel were fighting for their lives from the moment they arrived.

I *in no way* support most of the policies of Israel. The Girl and I argue an awful lot about this (and she's fairly liberal on such things too, so I'm clearly a radical freak). Palestine needs a state, Israel needs to be held to account for war crimes (and some Palestinian organizations need to be held to account for terrorism) and a lot needs to change in the region. Israel, specifically its politicians and policy-makers, has a lot to answer for. But I fail to see the point of arguing that the State of Israel should never have been created. Unless, as I said, you're also going to argue that the USA should never have taken land from the native Americans and that Britain should never have walked into Ireland. All true, to some extent, but all more complicated than that too. Especially today.

It's also worth remembering the the UN voted overwhelmingly for the creation of the State of Israel, the British left it in a mess, the Arab nations - with armies - attacked the day after the state was created, and it was all downhill from there. The people of Israel were fighting for their lives from the moment they arrived.

I think that gets forgotten a LOT.

The grossly-simplified "the Arabs hate the Jews and have always hated the Jews and just want to slaughter them to the last man because they always have" simply isn't true. The Arabs were fucked for generations by successive European powers and then one of them finally set up camp and stayed. If Israel were a nation of Presbyterians they'd have been greeted the same way under those circumstances.

I'm not saying there isn't historic emnity between the Jews and the Muslims in that chunk of the world, of course there is. It is not eternal and all-encompasing, however. Nor is it the entirety of this conflict. How does this really important little fact get so easily dismissed?

(I mean, I know how - we want yer white hats and yer black hats and life is so much simpler if y'all just hush and let us have 'em.)

I'm watching a documentary "Islam: What the West Needs to Know". It is scaring me a bit. I wonder how accurate it is.

If it is the one I am thinking of? It's not. Well, I should say the first half-ish or so wasn't. And then I got tired [eta: I shouldn't say tired. I was yelling at the doc and ranting, raving and demanding logic] of trying to get through it and shut it off. But I could be thinking of a different doc, of course.

The title itself is kind of a clue. Sounds like fear mongering to me.

I think I've seen the documentary too, and... not so good. Lots of fear mongering.

This sort of thing always reminds of this one friend/acquaintance person I knew who was horribly anti-Islam and carried on as if she knew so much about it, and when I asked where she learned so much about the religion, she said that she went to a lecture on Islam given by her Missouri Synod Lutheran Pastor at church. I asked if her pastor's opinion wasn't, perhaps, biased, and she seemed really puzzled.

Typo Boy, I don't see how my approach contradicting your. When saying "life is unfair", I also mean "acknowledge the pain (on both sides), suck it up this way or another (with/without compensation), move on". Honestly, I can't see how anything I ever wrote here can be related to automatic hate of Palestinians. And I don't hate "them", certainly not by default. I'm saying that we had difficulties, they had theirs, talking forever about who suffered more won't get us anywhere.

Anyhow, I think you're reading too much into Palestinian/Israel role. There were other countries involved (Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt...). Everyone is feeling much more comfortable with throwing this on Israel and the Palestinians alone, but there are other immediate factors in the short-long history of "the situation".

I'm watching a documentary "Islam: What the West Needs to Know". It is scaring me a bit. I wonder how accurate it is.

omnis, go and read this: Shir "Spike's Bitches 45: That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure." Feb 2, 2010 1:04:22 am PST and you may want to read the discussion before it.

And in much happier news: seems like there will be a site. I'm starting to get some positive feedback telling me I'm not crazy, but still need a legal hat for the site.

Edit: hold on. I don't think I saw/said proper hello to zuisa till now. So hello, zuisa!

Thanks!! I haven't been posting too much 'cause it seems that you all are awake and posting while I am asleep and I get up and it's like "Natter: 526 new Messages" and I'm like AAAAAAH. But I've been very much enjoying reading!!