On ebay? Link? I'd love to see~!

Never mind, found it. It's adorable!

If others are interested: [link]

I've still got one more. I hope it breaks the pattern, otherwise I fear for society.

In what alternate universe are The Girl and I your 'virtual' friends, please, Shir m'dear? :P

We met ONCE! But I still love you, you cheeky bastard.

2006 is only four years ago. Seems pretty recent to me

Sorry: it's just that very recent attacks reads to me as something that happened around 6 months ago, if not more recent. And God, I hated that war.

this was not like people were being granted independence where they were born : the "majority" even in Gerrymandered Israel only existed because of recent immigration taking place against the will of the people already there. That is not comparable to legitimate nation formation. More like what happened when Britain, Spain, France and Portugal stole the Americans from the American Indians. Nobody today thinks that is legitimate, but nobody today thinks everybody of European background should be thrown out of North American. (I should not say nobody - not very many people.) Even in 47, expulsion was not fair. But neither was letting a recent immigrant minority take over AND CONTROL a large swathe of territory in which others had lived and constituted a majority for hundreds of years.

Well, but where they were supposed to go? Uganda plan? Anywhere they'd go, there would have been other people there. And then what? Another occupation, just some place else.

Also, more than anything, it reminds me the formation of European countries in the beginning of the first millennium: lots of tribes who were pushing each other from one place to another due to numerous, speculated reasons. Stayed the same with Eastern and Central Europe till about less than 200 years ago (or, if you'll choose to see the Georgia/Russia recent war as descended to this line of fight, until recently).

We met ONCE! But I still love you, you cheeky bastard.

Eh. Irrelevant. I've got a whole load of friends I've met once or twice at most. So, ner.

Well, but where they were supposed to go? Uganda plan? Anywhere they'd go, there would have been other people there. And then what? Another occupation, just some place else.

Three possibilities:

1) American Zionists could have campaigned for opening up the U.S. to Jewish immigrants instead of campaigning against it to promote moves to Israel. A larger Jewish minority than we have today in the U.S. would not have been bad for either that minority or the U.S. That might actually have been achievable at the time.

2) If one insists on the right to a state at the expensive of someone else then the nations responsible for the Holocaust should have had to give up territory. There was a reasonable case for making Germany and Austria give up some of their territory to a Jewish state. Actually the European part of the Jewish Diaspora would have had more roots there than in Israel. Not practical, but in the long run neither may Israel be. The actual possible alternative was 1. In spite of U.S. anti-Semitism at the time it might have been possible if U.S. Jewish population had not actively supported low quotas.

3) There was another form of Zionism that is probably even less realistic - but still a counterfactual. The Palestinian rhetoric about a "Democratic Secular State" actually came from early Zionists who advocated a Palestine-Israel federation in which no land except a few sacred sites was reserved for any one religion, in which equal rights were guaranteed. One person/one vote across the whole area that was given combined to Israel and Palestine in 1947. Bear in mind that Palestians at the time were mostly secular. The extreme Islam of today was a minority. Jews, Christians and Muslims in the area were all more "pink" than religious. In spite of massacres going both ways, Jews and Muslims and Christians had managed to live in peace in the area. Something where Jews were immigrants and members of a secular state might have been a basis for a peaceful permanent solution.

So there were alternatives. At least one possible. At least one advocated by some Zionists.

And I don't see the parallels to early European tribes jostling for position. I think one difference is the huge number of immigrants to Israel that were not Middle Eastern Jews, but from the European Diaspora - with no recent ties to Israel. And even the Middle Eastern Jews were not moving as tribes. They came as individuals, families or at most villages from all over the place.

And I think seeing this is important, because it helps understand that Arabs who opposed the formation of Israel in 1947 were not just being evil anti-Semitic bastards. They were being asked to pay a price for a horrifying European Holocaust they did not commit, and for which those who did commit it were not asked to pay a comparable price. Even if you don't agree with their point of view (which I do) I hope you can see how someone not anti-Semitic could hold that point of view.

Ghada Karmi's book "Married to Another Man: Israel's Dilemma in Palestine" tells the story well.

"Two rabbis,visiting Palestine in 1897,observed that the land was like a bride,"beautiful,but married to another man". By which they meant that, if a place was to be found for Israel in Palestine, where would the people of Palestine go? "

I don't agree with her proposal for a solution today. But I think her history is valid and important.

Billytea, cleaning the affected area well and letting his bottom air dry then slathering it with a good brand of cream should form a barrier to help keep the rash from getting worse. I hope the wee man isn't too uncomfortable.

I've got a whole load of friends I've met once or twice at most.

Me too.

DebetEsse, I love it when people get auction fever!

Question for the hivemind. We are having a new refrigerator delivered tomorrow. We paid a $40 delivery fee (get it back in a $40 store credit) and the store tells us this is an independent contractor, not a store employee. Should we tip him, or how much of that $40 is he going to see?

Billytea, cleaning the affected area well and letting his bottom air dry then slathering it with a good brand of cream should form a barrier to help keep the rash from getting worse. I hope the wee man isn't too uncomfortable.

Thanks Cash. His nappy rash is much improved today, thankfully. (There's a papaw ointment we've been using with him since he was just a few weeks old, which works wonders for protecting him.) He still has the diarrhoea, though.

The Palestinian rhetoric about a "Democratic Secular State" actually came from early Zionists who advocated a Palestine-Israel federation in which no land except a few sacred sites was reserved for any one religion, in which equal rights were guaranteed

Well, that's an alternative, but a real possibility? These were such a minority, even more than the Israeli radical left today.

They were being asked to pay a price for a horrifying European Holocaust they did not commit, and for which those who did commit it were not asked to pay a comparable price.

I never thought that they didn't have to pay a price. I never thought they were anti-Semitic - I know many more in Europe were anti-Semitic at that time, post WW2. But sooner or later, everyone pays a price - life isn't fair, and especially wasn't fair at that time. And I can see this stand develops into (or backing up) anti-Semitic one pretty quickly.

I don't agree with her proposal for a solution today.

What's her proposal?