Well, no, but I feel there's some real estate between "vanilla" and "kinky".

exactly.

Ooooh, a kinky kerfuffle. Sounds sexy even if it will all end in semantics and maybe punctuation.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but Shir, I don't think the word "legitimate" means quite what you think it does. I'm having real trouble parsing it in the context we're discussing without your comments coming across as extremely judgmental, and since I'm pretty sure that's not your intent, it makes me think we're dealing with a simple translation error.

Thanks, Jessica.

When I say "legitimate", I mean "it's alright/customary". Not as "vanilla/kink", but as "it's on the rainbow of sexual accessories, unlike stuffing a 17 inch chainsaw into some holes in the body, which will result in deathbed wounds".

Any better now? Because that's how we use the word in Israel.

Because the meaning of what we do matters.

But it's not the meaning of what you do. It's the meaning of what others think about it. And they can be wrong, and don't have a clue. It's not the same thing.

What we do exists in a context. So, for instance, it's necessary to know if the definition I use is the same as the definition someone else uses.

Example: when you defined "kinky" as doing the reading for your class when the majority does not do the reading, I'm getting the sense that you define kinky as "that which the majority does NOT do."

That's certainly a different -- much, much broader, I should say -- usage of the word than I'm used to, and so I believe we might be talking at cross-purposes.

And THAT is why other people's meaning is as important as *my* meaning.

(Metal hurts. Do not want.)

Fur-lined leather cuffs. IJS.

I don't much mind what's considered 'normal' and what isn't, since I'm used to most of my life swinging between 'dull' and 'appalling' for average bystanders, none of whom I care about. But that's true in a number of areas of my life. And it's all dependent on the eye of the beholder.

But I am sometimes surprised that some of what I enjoy is considered so unacceptable - and I find it amusingly ironic, given that The Girl and I aren't all that kinky compared to a lot of people.

Gud, "even if"...?

I am sometimes surprised that some of what I enjoy is considered so unacceptable

And I, obviously, am sometimes surprised that some of what I do is considered so *acceptable* (c.f., handcuffs being not!kinky).

as "it's on the rainbow of sexual accessories, unlike stuffing a 17 inch chainsaw into some holes in the body, which will result in deathbed wounds".

Are you saying that if something is marketed as a sex toy, it's by definition not kinky?

Gud, "even if"...?

Fair point.

as "it's on the rainbow of sexual accessories, unlike stuffing a 17 inch chainsaw into some holes in the body, which will result in deathbed wounds".

Are you saying that if something is marketed as a sex toy, it's by definition not kinky?

That was my question -- if people do consider what they do "legitimate," then no matter what it is (if it doesn't result in death), it's "not kinky"? Because I know people who do literal crucifixion, and I wish I were joking. (I haven't seen it in person, nor do I intend to. If it's what they dig, then more power to them, but I personally get the screaming meemies even thinking about it. To be fair, I also didn't see that Passion of the Christ movie, either, so I'm consistent in not wanting to see crucifixion played out.)