Is anyone else fantasizing about putting together a geeky A-Team, stealing some choppers, storming into Bangkok, grabbing Fay and Daniel, and getting out? I'm not going to be able to relax until I know they're safe.

Oh, yes.

Teppy is wanting to use words as precision tools

Well, of course. What words mean *matters*.

How do you determine "legitimate"?

It's never occurred to me to define that. If it works for all partners and no one's getting hurt, it's all good.

I read Shir's comment as something that has a "legitimate" use = "not kinky." And I'm curious about that, because, again with the precision.

I read Shir's comment as something that has a "legitimate" use = "not kinky." And I'm curious about that, because, again with the precision.

I adore and appreciate your determination to precision, and hope my response cleared things up.

Though, we're Buffistas, so what are the odds for that.

Well, if kinky is what other people think of your sexual interests and turn ons, sure. I just don't see why it has to do with anything

Because the meaning of what we do matters.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but Shir, I don't think the word "legitimate" means quite what you think it does. I'm having real trouble parsing it in the context we're discussing without your comments coming across as extremely judgmental, and since I'm pretty sure that's not your intent, it makes me think we're dealing with a simple translation error.

Is anyone else fantasizing about putting together a geeky A-Team, stealing some choppers, storming into Bangkok, grabbing Fay and Daniel, and getting out?

Speaking of kinky...

Because the meaning of what we do matters.

But it's not the meaning of what you do. It's the meaning of what others think about it. And they can be wrong, and don't have a clue. It's not the same thing.

It's the classical looking glass self [link] which I don't accept, or actually, don't want to accept.

But if you go there, than yes, what you're doing is kinky. IMHO? What you're doing is fabulous, as the process that got you there.

I guess that because I have so much resentment to the looking glass self, I refuse to give you a clear answer if what you're doing is kink or not. Because I believe I'm not the one to judge and determine that, but you do.

Well, no, but I feel there's some real estate between "vanilla" and "kinky".

exactly.

Ooooh, a kinky kerfuffle. Sounds sexy even if it will all end in semantics and maybe punctuation.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but Shir, I don't think the word "legitimate" means quite what you think it does. I'm having real trouble parsing it in the context we're discussing without your comments coming across as extremely judgmental, and since I'm pretty sure that's not your intent, it makes me think we're dealing with a simple translation error.

Thanks, Jessica.

When I say "legitimate", I mean "it's alright/customary". Not as "vanilla/kink", but as "it's on the rainbow of sexual accessories, unlike stuffing a 17 inch chainsaw into some holes in the body, which will result in deathbed wounds".

Any better now? Because that's how we use the word in Israel.

Because the meaning of what we do matters.

But it's not the meaning of what you do. It's the meaning of what others think about it. And they can be wrong, and don't have a clue. It's not the same thing.

What we do exists in a context. So, for instance, it's necessary to know if the definition I use is the same as the definition someone else uses.

Example: when you defined "kinky" as doing the reading for your class when the majority does not do the reading, I'm getting the sense that you define kinky as "that which the majority does NOT do."

That's certainly a different -- much, much broader, I should say -- usage of the word than I'm used to, and so I believe we might be talking at cross-purposes.

And THAT is why other people's meaning is as important as *my* meaning.