Then there's the whole issue that since we signed the Geneva Convention, we are prohibited from torturing, and are required to prosecute allegations of torture. What ever happened to Republicans upholding the rule of law? I think GWB should have just said, "We're withdrawing from the Geneva Convention because we want to torture people." Instead, they attempted to redefine torture to allow what the Bush administration wanted to do.

I'm still very disappointed in the Obama administration for not prosecuting Cheney et al. Cheney has admitted to war crimes (when he stated that he endorsed the waterboarding of suspects). We are now required to prosecute him, as are the other signatories to the Geneva Convention should Cheney ever set foot in those countries.

If you only lost trust in your government when GWB ran it, you're younger than I thought, and certainly younger than I am :-)

I suspect this was humor intended to lighten the moment. But I will just share that I voted for Bush the first time around and he *made* me a Democrat. I am probably still a fairly conservative person but after 8 years of Bush, I can't shake the feeling that he and other leaders of his party are just mean or at best indifferent, particularly to poor people or people in minorities.

I can't remember the name, but there is this Supreme Court case in which the holding was essentially "despite majority voting, the majority can't use its majority to pick on minorities."

Not sure how relevant that is. But it's what I think of every time people discuss losing faith in government. I really should look up the name of that case.

I think GWB should have just said, "We're withdrawing from the Geneva Convention because we want to torture people." Instead, they attempted to redefine torture to allow what the Bush administration wanted to do.

I'd have been pretty pissed off if we withdrew from the Geneva Convention, but agree that it would have been the honest thing to do. The sleaziness with which torture was redefined to mean "the stuff that's worse than the stuff we're doing" makes me sick to my stomach.

Aims, hon, I hope you feel better.

I am Barb and Vortex, which means I'm in damn good company.

If you only lost trust in your government when GWB ran it, you're younger than I thought, and certainly younger than I am :-)

Again, Vortex can certainly stand up for herself, but that comment pings me as somewhat dismissive and condescending.

Y'all who would come into a bit of money for just doing some paperwork - I'll do your paperwork for you for a cut....

What's your percentage? I'm seriously tempted.

Ten Rules For Writing Fiction, from various authors

I love that piece. For those that haven't clicked through, Gaiman is among the other pile. They vacillate between practical advice and funny stuff but all worth reading.

Shari, I really don't want to continue this discussion here. It's been reasonable and nobody's gotten shouty but this isn't a political forum. We all know how to find our way to political forums and have those invigorating arguments, but that's not why we come here (for the most part).

I mean, if others want to continue that's fine. I'm not trying to squelch discussion if it needs to play out.

But I think you've articulated your position, and made your views known and I think that was both brave and useful for us to remember that Buffistas come in many flavors.

However, your views are far to the right of even the most conservative folks here, and I don't think people on either side will be persuaded one way or the other.

To speak for myself only, I am dead certain that you are wrong about torture (among other things). Just as I am sure you know that you are right. I can really only foresee this discussion devolving at some point because there is so little middle ground on which to meet.

In short: salad shooter.

In short: salad shooter.

Better yet, flaming salad shooter.

Frankly, anyone who cannot name a supreme court case other than Roe v. Wade or name any newspaper when asked should not be leading anything.

I wouldn't vote for someone to be Senior Class President at a high school who couldn't do that.

And now I'm going to do my best to shut my damn mouth, b/c I believe Hec is right.

I really, really would rather talk about other things, but I kinda feel compelled to respond to the political stuff, out of respect for the posters. Trying to balance that with not ticking off more people even more...

tommyrot, I can't speak for every decision or every action by the Bush administration, obviously. I think 9/11 was a huge shock to the system here, and that we really don't even today have the right words, laws, or procedures for dealing in a coherent and rational way with the war of the Islamists against us - from the decades before 9/11 until today.

Steph, I don't think there is a voter anywhere who wasn't disappointed somehow by every person they've ever voted for. As for "mean" or "indifferent", I'll just go out on a limb here and say that the image of the people in the GWB administration and their actions was horribly distorted by parts of the media and parts of the popular culture in ways that were - not new, but more extreme than in previous decades. People often don't know how much money the GWB admin. poured into AIDS, malaria, and TB prevention and treatment in the Third World, into environmental issues (in ways the "green" among us would approve), etc. The SCHIP program was reauthorized by Bush, the prescription drug benefit was signed by Bush, etc. Mock "compassionate conservatism" if you must, but there are people who really believe that helping people off welfare is helping them and something compassionate people should do, for eg.

I don't want to get into a point-by-point about all the awful things X administration did. It's just not all black and white 100% of the time, and part of my original impetus for putting myself out here on this was so often reading posts that saw no worldly good anywhere coming out of a Republican White House or Republican Congress, which was just hurtful from my POV.

And yes, the "younger than me" comment was totally intended as humor, guys.

I'm pretty happy with the way people have presented their respective political stances in a respectful way. Even if no minds are going to be changed, at least we all know where we stand. With that, I'll step out of the political and get back to the salad shooters.

I'm having a pampered chef party tonight, anyway so my mind is on kitchen gadgets.

I also have to take Liv with me for my check up with my plastic surgeon. I hope they don't mind her tagging along because I couldn't find anyone to watch her for my appointment. When I told her that she was going with me to get my boobies checked she told me that sometimes, her doctor checks her small boobies and that she'll have bigger boobies when she's older.

In short: boobies.

I guarantee this [link] will take our minds off stuff. Especially as it looks like those dresses were designed using a flaming salad shooter.

What's your percentage? I'm seriously tempted.

Hmm, how about 15%. Of course, by the time you gather up all the stuff that I would need to do it for you and send it to me, you might as well have done it yourself. So why not just do it and send me 5% for the hell of it. Muahahahaahahahahahahhha.

But you know, if it would help, what about setting up a time when we can talk on the phone or maybe in IM while you work - it sometimes helps to have a cheerleader.