I think Joss is an entitled white dude and has very skeevy attitudes towards women. I'm trying to sort out whether I think there's a continuum of predatory behavior, and I think the answer is yes. It's not just "Weinstein" and "not-Weinstein." (To be crystal clear, no one here has said or implied this. I'm just working it through in my head.)

Given that there's a continuum, I think what Joss did is predatory. Does it rise to the level of Harvey Weinstein? No. But just because he didn't destroy women's acting careers doesn't mean it wasn't gross and predatory. Not legally actionable (as far as we know right now), but gross.

I still love the first Avengers movie to pieces. I still love BTVS and Angel. I rewatch them, and I'm fine with that, though there are some themes that make me cringe in retrospect.

Will I watch his new stuff? Eh, maybe, though that's honestly dependent on whether or not it seems like it might be my cup of tea. Whereas I will not watch any more Woody Allen movies ever. (And even though I recognized that Manhattan was skeevy as shit the very first time I watched it, I still really loved it. Not anymore. He and his movies can die in a fire.)

What if his power and patronage is what allows a woman of a color to become a showrunner?

I'm not boycotting Mutant Enemy. I'm not opposed to his EP title. I'd prefer he be a hands-off EP and allow Monica Owusu-Breen to make the show her own. I hope that *is* the plan. Honestly though, I can't imagine that 20th would push to re-boot/resurrect this title, in our current environment, without considering someone other than a white dude to lead it.

Well, Monica Owusu-Breen is reportedly set as showrunner, so I suspect that Joss will be collecting a check and maybe sometimes serving as a creative advisor. I can't imagine he'll be heavily involved.

I think, generally speaking, if you have a creator credit, you get an EP credit too. A few years back, 20th was making noise about a Buffy reboot with no Joss involvement, and I think the entire world screamed, "No!" so I suspect they've brought him aboard this time to avoid the initial objection.

But it does look like he gave MORE opportunities for people he had sex with.

Hey Hec, I hope you're doing well. I am hardly ever around, so please know I'm saying this in a friendly way, like if we were just talking about this stuff over coffee, in person.

I'm not going to quote the whole thing for reasons that will be obvious, but I couldn't tell from reading if you were just speculating about those Buffyverse actresses.

If there were stories about those particular women and Joss, I missed them and apologize for barging in and not knowing what I'm talking about.

If not, if that's just speculation, I feel uncomfortable with it. It doesn't seem fair to the women to pick out who could be likely suspects for bumping uglies with the boss.

I felt terrible for Kai Cole when I read her piece about their marriage in The Wrap, but I couldn't help also feeling bad that people were going to be looking askance at every female who worked with Joss, or was otherwise in his proximity, during their marriage.

I'm curious to see how Buffistas see him now. Do you consider him a sexual predator?

As for the larger question: I don't know if Joss is a sexual predator. I'd like to think he's not, so I will think that, unless people who have been preyed upon come forward.

The marital failures are between him and his ex-wife. On the question of predation, I am with Plei.

The last works he did that I loved were Buffy and Angel, anyhow. I felt bad Firefly didn't get more of a chance, but I had issues with it (and with Serenity). It's probably neither fair nor accurate, but once Kai told her story, it made things make sense in my head -- how someone who did these things I admired then went down an artistic path that turned me off.

The Dollhouse concept squicked me before I even saw a frame of it, but I decided to try it out, hoping Joss would subvert all the things I found icky. I think I got through the opening scene. I just remember Eliza's barely covered ass (perhaps a white mini-skirt or dress) and maybe a motorcycle and that I turned the channel thinking, "This isn't going to be my show."

I got Marvel-ed out, so while I watched the first Avengers, I never did get to Age of Ultron.

It's been a long time since Joss's attachment made something a must-see (or at least must give it a shot) for me, but I'm not at the point where I couldn't stomach watching his stuff. I don't find his brain foamy anymore, and because of his work, not because of his life.

(I'm not just reeling off a random list but these are artists I've spent some time trying to sort through my feelings about.)

Woody Allen (personally, I have stopped wanting to watch his movies, and find Manhattan in particular troubling)

Roman Polanski (I'd still watch Chinatown or Repulsion, but not interested in defending him)

Bill Crosby (rapist. No interest in revisiting his work. Which is definitely a bit of a personal amputation as his standup was formative in my childhood years and my brain still reaches for some of those jokes)

I haven't been able to watch Woody Allen since Soon-Yi (was that the early 90s), and the first round of allegations about the abuse of his daughter.

Polanski makes me sick, but I think because he's not on-screen (maybe cameos? I can't remember), I can watch his work. I never had any sort of attachment to Polanski-as-artist, so maybe it doesn't matter to me.

Cosby, I can never watch again. I think of the people you listed, I had the strongest mental (continued...)

( continues...) connection between the man and his work, so it's the hardest to separate him from it.

Bowie? I think I'd have to stop listening to most of my preferred music (60s and 70s stuff), if I started thinking about the musicians' personal lives. I also never actively read about Bowie's and am not inclined to, now that he's dead. I saw him in concert once (Glass Spider Tour). He was amazing.

I've always wanted to slap Kevin Spacey, so I actively avoided House of Cards, even when Scott and our sons watched it. I never saw American Dream and Beyond the Sea, because of it (although I have seen some Spacey movies, like Usual Suspects, I just decided i didn't like him).

I was about to give HoC a shot (because it's not like Frank Underwood is supposed to be likable) when Anthony Rapp's story broke.

If there were stories about those particular women and Joss,

They were specifically mentioned. None of them have commented on it as far as I know though - so no confirmations, nor denials and not any claims of harassment.

I think I'd have to stop listening to most of my preferred music (60s and 70s stuff), if I started thinking about the musicians' personal lives.

I'm not saying you're obliged to think about the sexual behavior 60s and 70s musicians, but that is a question I've seen come up fairly often. And I have seen a number of younger women flat stating that any musician that had sex with a 15 year old groupie was committing rape. So I'm just trying to thread my way to some personal clarity on that issue.

I went back and checked my celebrity gossip. Charisma is not listed as somebody he had an affair with.

This is an interesting and well thought-out take on the specific subject:

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Jennifer Pozner: "I take a hard line as a media critic when Hollywood or the music industry actively profit from and are complicit in sexual assault or other kinds of violence by its cash cows (think R. Kelly, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, Jian Ghomeshi). Culpability rests with the industry that props up celebrity abusers for profit, rather than on individuals who listen to a song or watch a film — though fans share some responsibility for continued support of artists enabled to keep perpetrating abuse because of their fans' financial fuel. Still, I'm not sure it's fair to ask fans to stop enjoying the work of artists who are simply assholes, but not violent or aggressively discriminatory.

So, for example: I enjoyed dancing to cheesy Ace of Base songs like other 90s kids, but I won't sing them at nostalgia karaoke after learning that their lead singer was a neo-Nazi skinhead before he turned to whitewashed (sad pun intended) pop. His lyrical attempts to radicalize listeners into embracing hatred of and violence against Jews, Black people, immigrants, and others is a clear reason to shun his work.

On the other hand, the growing tendency to discard any public figure who says or does something we don't like can be shortsighted when their behavior doesn't rise to broader sociopolitical relevance. As gross as Joss Whedon's comments about being 'surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women… Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can't touch it' on the Buffy set were, and as disrespectful as his affairs were to his wife, that doesn't rise to the level of requiring fans to throw away his work (though like any artist, the content of his work itself is always fair game for substantive critique around gender, race, sexuality, and more).

He's not a feminist in his personal relationships, but douchey behavior isn't the place where the 'discard this person as a creator, and discount their work' line should get drawn. It would be different if he sexually harassed or discriminated against coworkers, but lying/cheating seems an unreasonable standard: if we extend the line to assholes, how much art would we have left to consume? Shady jerks are everywhere in the industry."

The other responses are also worth considering: [link]

You can see critics and fans wrestling with it.

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Esther Kustanowitz: "The Joss Whedon situation hit me hard, because I was a huge fan of his work and saw him as such a champion of women. (I even wrote about it once, and that last episode of Buffy, as girls everywhere wake up to their own power, still makes me cry even while writing about it. Seriously. Just watched it again, and waterworks.) I even remembered being jealous when I heard an early demo version of some 'Once More with Feeling' songs sung by Kai; I imagined them in an equally partnered space of feminism, respect, music, humor and love that I was envious of and wanted for my own.

But this was a reminder again that you never know what's going on in someone else's relationship; that our idols have feet of clay; that in Hollywood, image is cultivated and constructed with a purpose. I can't imagine what it's like to be Kai, learning that her husband had betrayed and having to live in a world that idolized her husband for his support of women. But I also can't put aside the culture he created — perhaps, at least with the earlier of his works, while his vision and leadership was at the helm, it's worth celebrating the many many others who worked to expand ideas, creatively imagining and building those universes with him. For future works?

This isn't a 'Cosby situation,' so I'm not in the 'boycott' camp, but as I consume, and probably enjoy, the creative works where he's had an impact, I'll focus any appreciation on his writing talent, but will be significantly less worshipful of the man and his presence in the world."

Regarding assholeness, I imagine there are tons of asshokes in Hollywood. There sure are in the theatre. One thing I love about Lin Manuel Miranda and his creative team is that they actively speak about not having to be assholes to go through an artistic process. They just don't accept that. I hope they never change.