I love Vertigo exactly because it's Hitchcock baring his kinks on screen.

Except that he would go on to more or less act them out in real life on Tippi Hedren.

Yeah, Tumblr does that too. I think there was stuff that was glossed over at the time because fandom deified him, and I think there's shit leveled at him now that's unfair.

Agreed. And some of the interpersonal crap around CC that he gets blamed for is a lot more complicated than Tumblr claims, which is frustrating as hell. I remember what was happening at the time!

Joss is interesting in that regard, because the quality of his work suffers in direct proportion to how much he gives in to his worst impulses. And not just because it's icky; it's like all quality control gets thrown out the window as he tries to shoehorn his baggage into the script.

THIS. The worst parts of AoU for me were the ones where his baggage was overwhelming and cringe-worthy.

His whole thing with Lori Maddox is hard to parse from a contemporary perspective.

There's a LOT of the 1970s that's hard to parse and, given her tendency to be a somewhat unreliable narrator (see [link] ), I am still not sure where I fall on that one. Or the 1970s in general.

Except to say that the past really is a foreign country and the sexual history of my circle back in our teens would raise modern eyebrows, yet isn't what most of us feel harmed by now. Even those of us who have been through a lot of therapy! (Exceptions would be people who were REALLY underage with people who were already in their 20s, probably.)

(Also...this sort of ties into a thing where I think we can retroactively damage ourselves unnecessarily, which is the sort of conversation to be had over serious cocktails.)

Polanski is a horror show. But Bitter Moon was very important to me in the days where I didn't know the specifics of the assault and just knew the common knowledge version of statutory rape. So.

Except that he would go on to more or less act them out in real life on Tippi Hedren.

That's why it's better to make weird movies than weird gestures!

I have to say that I am coming down on the side of Chris Hardwick, after those other girlfriends of his stated they did not see any of that kind of behavior from his, during many years with him. This is partially, I realize, due to very personal reasons. The woman who wrote the article cheated on Hardwick, and my ex-DH cheated on me and then told all of our friends about how my behavior had driven him to it. Her article had a feel of the same kind of self-justification to it. But I realize that is based on my own biases.

Allen, Cosby, Spacey and Weinstein can rot in Hell and I am not interested in giving them another of my hard-earned dollars.

I am a person who just can't with either Roald Dahl or Miguel Ferrar because of mini-series as a formative age.

Allen, Cosby and Weinstein can rot in hell. But I can't avoid all Miramax- it seems like there is a lot of it, and some of it is Enchanted April. I was never a big fan, though.

I am pretty sure I knew about Spacey through theatre gossip, so I can't quite write him off because I feel a little complicit that I continued watching him. But also was not a big fan. I think I liked him most in a really small part in Henry and June.

I feel personally affronted by Joss, but I think his work is good to talk about and I would be less annoyed with affairs with age appropriate women if he also hadn't said he was around all these needy young women he couldn't touch. Eew. I am around beautiful young men and women a lot, and I get total mom crushes, but no.

I feel semi conflicted about giving Bowie a pass, but it also doesn't seem like his behavior continued outside the context of the 70's nor after he was married to Iman or even after he was a real adult and not a young rock star. My feeling is that he might feel bad in retrospect, unlike the other guys whose apologies are startlingly blind seeming.

I have to say that I am coming down on the side of Chris Hardwick, after those other girlfriends of his stated they did not see any of that kind of behavior from his, during many years with him.

The ex who hit, bit, and choked me never did that with anyone else as far as I could tell. I've been told he'd never hurt a fly.

He did, however, hurt me.

After which, but only after which, I cheated on him. Because I was looking for a way to escape somehow and I was 20 and it fucked me up so badly that I somehow couldn't just leave so I needed someone to help me get out of there and one thing led to another. This is a not uncommon motivation for women when they've been abused, in my experience. (People cheat for all kinds of reasons. Some are less awful than others. Not that any are great, but I understand some of them on a visceral level.)

That many people who worked with Hardwick over the years weren't entirely shocked would lead me to believe her, even if my own experience didn't.

I can live a fulfilling life without ever seeing another Woody Allen or Roman Polanski movie or Bill Cosby media offering.

Joss pissed me off severely in AoU. And when he wasn't pissing me off, he bored me. All moral issues aside, that's hard to forgive, especially in the context of a superhero movie. Will the issues that have come to light about Joss keep me from watching his stuff? Eh, I've rewatched The Avengers since the news broke, so I guess not. And if I hear he's doing something that's really awesome in the future and it's not too hard to get ahold of (i.e., not on HBO), I might give it a shot. But if I have money and time for one movie next year, and I have the choice between Taika Waititi, Patty Jenkins, or Joss, Joss will not be making the cut. While I was really into Buffy and Angel I would have made a point to check out anything else Joss did. Now, it's easier for me to find a lot of really good artists making a lot of neat media, and given the choice between something made by someone with a bit of ick about him and something else made by someone without that ( as far as we know at the time), I'm going to have to hear something really awesome about the former property to chose it over the latter.

I think Joss is an entitled white dude and has very skeevy attitudes towards women. I'm trying to sort out whether I think there's a continuum of predatory behavior, and I think the answer is yes. It's not just "Weinstein" and "not-Weinstein." (To be crystal clear, no one here has said or implied this. I'm just working it through in my head.)

Given that there's a continuum, I think what Joss did is predatory. Does it rise to the level of Harvey Weinstein? No. But just because he didn't destroy women's acting careers doesn't mean it wasn't gross and predatory. Not legally actionable (as far as we know right now), but gross.

I still love the first Avengers movie to pieces. I still love BTVS and Angel. I rewatch them, and I'm fine with that, though there are some themes that make me cringe in retrospect.

Will I watch his new stuff? Eh, maybe, though that's honestly dependent on whether or not it seems like it might be my cup of tea. Whereas I will not watch any more Woody Allen movies ever. (And even though I recognized that Manhattan was skeevy as shit the very first time I watched it, I still really loved it. Not anymore. He and his movies can die in a fire.)

What if his power and patronage is what allows a woman of a color to become a showrunner?

I'm not boycotting Mutant Enemy. I'm not opposed to his EP title. I'd prefer he be a hands-off EP and allow Monica Owusu-Breen to make the show her own. I hope that *is* the plan. Honestly though, I can't imagine that 20th would push to re-boot/resurrect this title, in our current environment, without considering someone other than a white dude to lead it.

Well, Monica Owusu-Breen is reportedly set as showrunner, so I suspect that Joss will be collecting a check and maybe sometimes serving as a creative advisor. I can't imagine he'll be heavily involved.

I think, generally speaking, if you have a creator credit, you get an EP credit too. A few years back, 20th was making noise about a Buffy reboot with no Joss involvement, and I think the entire world screamed, "No!" so I suspect they've brought him aboard this time to avoid the initial objection.

But it does look like he gave MORE opportunities for people he had sex with.

Hey Hec, I hope you're doing well. I am hardly ever around, so please know I'm saying this in a friendly way, like if we were just talking about this stuff over coffee, in person.

I'm not going to quote the whole thing for reasons that will be obvious, but I couldn't tell from reading if you were just speculating about those Buffyverse actresses.

If there were stories about those particular women and Joss, I missed them and apologize for barging in and not knowing what I'm talking about.

If not, if that's just speculation, I feel uncomfortable with it. It doesn't seem fair to the women to pick out who could be likely suspects for bumping uglies with the boss.

I felt terrible for Kai Cole when I read her piece about their marriage in The Wrap, but I couldn't help also feeling bad that people were going to be looking askance at every female who worked with Joss, or was otherwise in his proximity, during their marriage.

I'm curious to see how Buffistas see him now. Do you consider him a sexual predator?

As for the larger question: I don't know if Joss is a sexual predator. I'd like to think he's not, so I will think that, unless people who have been preyed upon come forward.

The marital failures are between him and his ex-wife. On the question of predation, I am with Plei.

The last works he did that I loved were Buffy and Angel, anyhow. I felt bad Firefly didn't get more of a chance, but I had issues with it (and with Serenity). It's probably neither fair nor accurate, but once Kai told her story, it made things make sense in my head -- how someone who did these things I admired then went down an artistic path that turned me off.

The Dollhouse concept squicked me before I even saw a frame of it, but I decided to try it out, hoping Joss would subvert all the things I found icky. I think I got through the opening scene. I just remember Eliza's barely covered ass (perhaps a white mini-skirt or dress) and maybe a motorcycle and that I turned the channel thinking, "This isn't going to be my show."

I got Marvel-ed out, so while I watched the first Avengers, I never did get to Age of Ultron.

It's been a long time since Joss's attachment made something a must-see (or at least must give it a shot) for me, but I'm not at the point where I couldn't stomach watching his stuff. I don't find his brain foamy anymore, and because of his work, not because of his life.

(I'm not just reeling off a random list but these are artists I've spent some time trying to sort through my feelings about.)

Woody Allen (personally, I have stopped wanting to watch his movies, and find Manhattan in particular troubling)

Roman Polanski (I'd still watch Chinatown or Repulsion, but not interested in defending him)

Bill Crosby (rapist. No interest in revisiting his work. Which is definitely a bit of a personal amputation as his standup was formative in my childhood years and my brain still reaches for some of those jokes)

I haven't been able to watch Woody Allen since Soon-Yi (was that the early 90s), and the first round of allegations about the abuse of his daughter.

Polanski makes me sick, but I think because he's not on-screen (maybe cameos? I can't remember), I can watch his work. I never had any sort of attachment to Polanski-as-artist, so maybe it doesn't matter to me.

Cosby, I can never watch again. I think of the people you listed, I had the strongest mental (continued...)