Fury was the

I got that, but there's no way that his building of secret, non-SHIELD bunkers only came about around the time of CA2 (or even, let's say, Avengers). It takes time to build secret bunkers, and even more time to pick out a Phil Coulson and get him into a position where he can do real good just in case everything goes to hell in the worst way possible.

Does that make sense? I don't think that he started building bunkers because he thought something was not right with SHIELD; I think he built bunkers because he's paranoid, and his paranoia turned out to be correct.

I know Fury was starting to suspect something was rotten in SHIELD in the movie, but in general, I think he's a (more or less justifiably) paranoid guy whose paranoia was eventually proven correct.

Although it makes me wonder why he was defending Project Insight so strongly to Cap, if he was suspicious that something was rotten in SHIELD.

Tep, to the last point, because to a paranoid guy like Fury, there's always someone listening. And, who exactly would a paranoid spymaster trust? No one. (Until he really has to.)

Fury is just as paranoid about outside threats as he is inside. Which explains why he was so gung-ho about Project Insight.

Between last night's jab from Garrett that Fury was personally responsible for the Chitauri invasion, plus his not actually launching the Extremely Dangerous Technology into the sun, Fury is sounding like a pretty incompetent guy.

Last night's jab from Garrett that Fury was personally responsible for the Chitauri invasion is making sound like Fury is a pretty incompetent guy.

I caught that, but (1) Garrett's opinions aren't exactly credible, and (2) Loki.

plus his not actually launching the Extremely Dangerous Technology into the sun

My reaction to that was "I wouldn't have launched the Berserker staff into the sun, either." IOW, I wasn't surprised all that stuff was still around.

Which really underlines the point of the movie (and now the show): is/was SHIELD dangerous because Hydra infiltrated, or is/was SHIELD dangerous because power corrupts both people and institutions?

Tep, to the last point, because to a paranoid guy like Fury, there's always someone listening. And, who exactly would a paranoid spymaster trust? No one. (Until he really has to.)

Fury is just as paranoid about outside threats as he is inside. Which explains why he was so gung-ho about

Fair points. I didn't consider those. I'm about as black-and-white as Cap about some things.

is/was SHIELD dangerous because power corrupts both people and institutions?

Preeeeeeeetty sure it's that one, given it's one of Joss's pet themes.

Preeeeeeeetty sure it's that one, given it's one of Joss's pet themes.

It's just interesting to me that, on the face of it, the immediate reaction is "Holy shit, Hydra infiltrated SHIELD? Bad evil bad noooooo!", but then you pull back and think "Waaaaaait a second."

Or maybe that was just my reaction. I am kind of simple. It's possible that every other person who saw the movie and/or watches the show had the immediate reaction of "Well, SHIELD is shifty anyway, because power corrupts good people; the Hydra thing is ACTUALLY secondary."

And, damn it, I want to keep discussing this, but I have a pile of work to do. I hope there are more interesting posts after I've demolished the pile.

That was, to me, easily the best episode of the season, but I'm getting the vibe that other people didn't think so. Evil!Ward NINE THOUSAND times more interesting than Boring!Ward. Coulson had a realistic emotional reaction to the shit going down. May also had a realistic reaction ("Uh, dude, are you sure you're not crazy?").

And I'm very pleased that Ward isn't brainwashed.

May's reaction is very reasonable. Why should she trust Coulson when it's been proven that nobody can be trusted? She doesn't know he's the main character of a TV show put out by Disney.

edit: And god knows what happened to his brain in T.A.H.I.T.I.

Garrett didn't see the alien, did he? I wonder if Raina can be fully trusted now?

I'm with Dana on the character notes. I just don't trust the show to not rehabilitate Ward, or at least do so in an interesting way. Considering I mostly watch for Coulson, I'm still liking what they're doing with him, thankfully.

(I get the idea that Bill Paxton is having a really great time being a comic book villain!)