The original pitch was the Dollhouse was good from Joss, but FOX wanted it to be evilish, so it changed as they went along.

So was there no sex with dolls in the original plan?

There was sex.

I'd like to see how that would be handled with having the Dollhouse still being good. Isn't the sex part where most people think is the Dollhouse at its worst?

Given the amount of men who use brothels throughout history and buy Maxim, no?

I don't think the good or bad thing comes out of sex per say, I think it's about the Dollhouse's intentions. What is the goal of the Dollhouse as a worldwide organisation? Is it really 'just' fantasy?

I do think Dollhouse has clearly had the angles that as a society and personally we use each other - Paul and Mellie in the last episode being a classic example - and that 'perversion' is often best shared. With layers of self justification thrown on top. I don't think there's anything wrong with Topher hiring Sierra to hang around with. I mean, it's sad, but it's better than being lonely.

Given the amount of men who use brothels throughout history and buy Maxim, no?

You equate sex with a Doll with buying Maxim? Really?

it's sad, but it's better than being lonely.

How do you define "better"? As healthier? Because establishing consensual peer relationships strikes me as "better".

I'm thinking a Maxim reader might not be as offended by the notion of paying for sex than, well, this forum. Better can be a short term thing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Topher hiring Sierra to hang around with.

He didn't *hire* her, he imprinted a personality on her with the consent of Boyd, not Sierra.

Given the amount of men who use brothels throughout history and buy Maxim, no?

Brothels also prey on women who have few choices, but at least they have more choice on a client by client basis than the Dolls. (sometimes not a *lot* of choice, but...) Every time a Doll has a sexual assignment, that Doll is raped.

Prostitutes get raped too sometimes- it's really not as benign a situation for the women that you are painting.

I'm thinking a Maxim reader might not be as offended by the notion of paying for sex

So you're in the camp of paying for sex with an Active is equivalent to hiring a hooker?

I'm not a Maxim buyer, but it is a magazine I pick up at the newstands to read through, and I see a difference.

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So, at this point, people were like, "um, is noted feminist auteur Joss Whedon aware that he is making a show about forced prostitution and rape?" Whedon's politics have repeatedly been called into question, and usually for damn good reason. (Here is the thing about doing stuff that appeals to politically engaged audiences: you cannot fuck up politically and have people fail to notice or just go, "oh well, par for the course, ha ha ha!" You get yelled at. Sorry. Deal.) Dollhouse, in particular, had the potential to be hugely offensive. Here is the thing: Whedon, unlike most folks and many feminist or progressive-identified dudes, seems to actually listen when he is called out and to improve his work accordingly. In the case of Dollhouse, I think he is doing smarter work than he ever was. Getting smarter about oppression, I would submit to you, requires making the visible manifestations of it or metaphors for it much, much uglier.

The answer to whether Joss Whedon and his showrunners know how rape-culturey the entire Dollhouse concept is would seem to be, at this point, a big huge Yes.

The answer to whether Joss Whedon and his showrunners know how rape-culturey the entire Dollhouse concept is would seem to be, at this point, a big huge Yes.

Uh huh, and then what?