I don't think the guys we have seen so far wanted sex per se. They wanted the "girlfriend experience." We saw much more bonding stuff than sex (motorcycle racing, rock climbing, dancing, banter) from each of them (even Killer Guy) than of sex. The first guy gave her a necklace and seemed to really like her, real or not. It isn't that they didn't want sex, but that they didn't want ONLY sex, or primarily sex.

Maybe this is from my time as a stripper, but I don't find this farfetched There were lots of guys who came in and paid lots of money just because they wanted a girl to talk to them and flirt with them. They weren't hungry for sex, which was available just outside the door at much cheaper. They were hungry to have a girl hang out with them.

It's rape like it was when Warren did whatever he did to Katrina. When she came to -- that is, when she got her own personality rose back to her conscious state -- she knew it was rape.

Oh, thank you, Cindy! This is the best way I've heard it put, and that's exactly it.

Even if we know what they're going to choose, they still do choose.

This is how I see it as well.

Say the Dollhouse is the best matchmaking service ever, with unimaginable resources. Instead of "creating" a perfect date, they find one. They use demographic profiling, credit reports, personality tests disguised as wacky LJ memes, whatever. They locate a woman who has always been attracted to guys just like Motorcycle Guy, and who Motorcycle Guy would be equally (and genuinely) attracted to. Oh, and this woman tends to fall head over heels immediately. Without letting her know that they are matchmakers, the Dollhouse arranges for her to meet Motorcycle Guy. When their eyes meet across a crowded Harley dealership, does the woman have free will? For that matter, does Motorcycle Guy?

I'd say they have as much free will at that moment as anyone ever does. Granted, I'm not big on free will, so that isn't saying much.

For me the big ethical problem isn't creating new personalities, it's erasing them. Of course, that's also the big narrative problem, since from my point of view the show's protaganist is long dead.

I'm holding out some hope that she's only Mostly Dead, and little flashes like that shoulder-to-the-wheel gesture show that she's getting better in between assignments.

Yeah, this. Scrappy, that's interesting.Not what the culture would lead you to think. But I guess it wouldn't be good business to appeal to Lonely Guys as Lonely Guys, advertising-wise.

and little flashes like that shoulder-to-the-wheel gesture show that she's getting better in between assignments.

Wasn't the shoulder-to-the-wheel gesture just left over from the imprinting for the-most-dangerous-game guy? Or at least leftover from what he said to her? Rather than a re-emergence of her base (Caroline) personality. So it shows that the Dollhouse isn't successful at completely erasing the experiences she's undergoing, I guess, but I'm not sure it's leftover from Caroline herself.

So it shows that the Dollhouse isn't successful at completely erasing the experiences she's undergoing, I guess, but I'm not sure it's leftover from Caroline herself.

But she also wasn't following the script for interacting with the handler when he was shot in the woods. When he said "Everything's going to be all right." And she was having flashes of Caroline.

But she also wasn't following the script for interacting with the handler when he was shot in the woods. When he said "Everything's going to be all right." And she was having flashes of Caroline.

I'm not convinced by the interactions between her and her handler (my favorite parts of the episode) because they flipped around the call-and-response script, but it was still the same words. (It's not like she suddenly started saying "look, this is a screwed up situation, and we need to trust each other. You're hurt, I'll take over from here." She mostly just repeated, in whatever order, words that had already been drummed into her brain. Except for the bit about her brothers. Do we know if Caroline actually has brothers, or are they the brothers of the imprinted personality?) But I HAD forgotten that she kept seeing flashes of Caroline. I was so squicked by that point that I stopped paying close attention.

The handler started the script, and I think she responded right to the first prompt and didn't to the second. Later they flipped it.

It's rape like it was when Warren did whatever he did to Katrina. When she came to -- that is, when she got her own personality rose back to her conscious state -- she knew it was rape.

Oh, thank you, Cindy! This is the best way I've heard it put, and that's exactly it.

Well .. it's mostly it. We're missing a few key pieces of information;

We do not know the entirety of Caroline's deal with the Dollhouse. My suspicion is that, if she came back to her full memory right now, that she would not be surprised to have been a prostitute. In fact, she might be more surprised to have been a hostage negotiator. Lord knows we all were.

It's a fine point, but a significant one. I don't think it negates any of the discussions of rape and free will, but it does make a difference if Caroline made a conscious choice to subject herself to this. (Albeit one made under obvious duress.) At least, it makes a difference when comparing her to Katrina, who was entirely unwilling and unknowing.

If, in the beginning, the Dollhouse said: "OK, you're going to be a prostitute and a, uhm, hostage negotiator, and you're not going to remember any of it later," I'm not entirely sure it negates any of the ethical considerations discussed. But it may mitigate them. Whereas, if they had grabbed Caroline off the street and reprogrammed her against her will? Well, that would be a different story entirely. And it's that story that happened to Katrina.

But again, I don't think the central question of the story is the Dollhouse's ethics. I think the whole situation is unabashedly unethical, and the dressing it up in TV glamour doesn't do anything to take away from it. (I'm utterly unconcerned with yahoos who don't get it, and just tune in 'cause Eliza's hot. They're not really watching anyway. At least, they're not watching the show.)

The central question is the limits of free will, and in that, we get far more interesting questions: Was Caroline's choice to be an Active entirely valid if it A.) was made under duress and B.) was made without being entirely informed about what she's doing.

But the boundaries of that question have already been expanded: Obviously, the hunter guy situation proved that there is a limit to how far Echo's going to fall for a guy, and I'm sure there's a point where basic self-preservation overtakes programming. Remember, Ms. Penn (the negotiator) over rode her programming when faced with a related trauma, and Echo never had another pang of love for the hunter guy after he turned on her. I think, outside the parameters of the scenario, basic human reasoning takes over.

But then there's the question of Caroline re-emerging, or possibly the various personalities she's worn re-merging and fusing, the latter being what evidently happened to Alpha. Do these things go away. Can they go away? There's a fundamental question here as to what we really are, and that I find interesting.