I love her in the role, though

I don't really expect remotely accurate physicality from action/comic movies

But you get it from the guys, why shouldn't you ask the same for the women? She fires guns like she's never held one before, they almost have a strobe light over all her changes to stunt doubles--it's clear they don't care as much about her looking badass as they do the men.

Would you think, ooh, she's gonna fuck me up, and her gun form is appalling--it's clear she's sighted neither of them, and then she moves her hands when she fires like if she pushes the bullets will go faster, and her stance is mostly about her ass.

When does Captain America or Hawkeye look mockable by the average Joe? It takes an archery expert to tear Hawkeye apart (and I still think those errors are shameful), but ScarJo just looks like she can only hurt people by refusing to fuck them.

I don't think the average Joe has that as his area of expertise, though. I mean, you do, because you've got training in it, so it throws you out.

I don't (I haven't fired a gun in at least a decade, and the closest I've had to martial arts training is three months of jazz dance, and you can't kill a person with your pinkie when you've got jazz hands), so I don't actually notice it on screen the way I would, say massive errors in horse racing related stuff.

When people touch swords with their bare hands .... so annoying (the oils on your skin will corrode the blade).

The archery errors with Hawkeye make me cringe (I am not an archer, I am adjacent to one and thus know too much), but I still like watching him, and I still like Renner's portrayal of him. Same goes for ScarJo's Widow. I see the ridiculous stance etc but my mind just goes "Hollywood, whatever". For me, it's almost like watching RDJ pretend to exert effort to move the suit faster. That is not the way it would really be. Anyway, seeing Black Widow do things like manipulate Loki into revealing his plan is way more important to me than whether the actress holds a gun exactly right. YMMV (and clearly does).

I honestly have no idea whether any of them look ridiculous. I think your focus on that is exactly like the archery expert's focus on Hawkeye and that it is just as opaque to most of us. I have never heard an average Joe making fun of any of them. If hers is worse it is news to me. More importantly I certainly don't blame her for that; she was not cast to be a fighting expert any more than the dudes were. If they are getting better coaching than she is then that's not on her, it's on whoever fight choreographing them. I doubt she thinks of the action scenes as being the major part of the role, and I agree with her: it's not makes it a good role it is just the background needed to get her in the game.

Sarah Michelle Gellar never threw a believable punch - even I could see that - but I think I'm probably in good company on this board when I don't throw the character or actress out for that.

How many stunt changes could you call for the male characters? ANd how many for Black Widow? It just stank of a lack of respect to me. Training her out of pushing a gun, or getting her to act like aiming and recoil are things should be rudimentary.

Chris Evans always looked like he was fighting, even some of the time he was wearing the mask. Determining that ScarJo just got replaced by a guy just took a second watch, never mind all the IM2 "I must put my hair in my face now, because a fight is going to start."

You can take female fighting and badassedness seriously (cf Fast and Furious, esp 6), but for some reason Joss didn't care, and don't for a second imagine I didn't bitch about Buffy too. But the writing was much better, and IMO SMG is a better actor. Never mind the lower bar TV in the first place.

Her characterisation was al least half breast, 1/4 ass , and 100% not up to the standards set for women in action in movies.

Remember--I'm not a gun expert. I've used them, I'm decent at them, but it wouldn't have taken that for me to work out that moving the gun while you're firing is going to fuck your shot up. And if they can take the time for the men to look amazing....well, I just don't dig the female fandom love for her. All I see is an insult.

I never notice any of the stuntspeople. I guess I am unobservant.

I never notice any of the stuntspeople. I guess I am unobservant.

Me, neither. Well, once in a while on Buffy episodes that I had watched a gazillion times (Becoming Pt. 2, for instance). But pretty much anything else? Nope. Never notice. And I know nothing about guns/arrows/swords/etc., so that doesn't ping me.

(I also know nothing about period clothing, so THAT doesn't ping me, either. I remember people having an issue with...buttons, maybe? in Cowboys vs. Aliens, and ISTG my reaction was "Haven't buttons always been around?" [When I stop to think about it, I know they haven't, but I can't tell you when they were introduced, so I have no idea.] The cowboys would have had to be wearing Disco Stu clothes with goldfish platform shoes for me to think something was off.)

I'm suddenly realizing I might be the ideal movie viewer.

I disagree about the relative acting chops. I love SMG as Buffy, but haven't really be able to buy her in any of the other things I've seen her in, which is a fair amount, because Buffy. SJ, I've been watching since she was a kid doing indies, and I've enjoyed her as multiple characters. (Honestly, I've watched some awful stuff that was mainly redeemed for me by her performance. *Cough*Nanny Diaries*Cough*)

I can call a few for the male actors, TBH, which says more about my obsessive rewatching of some fight scenes more than anything else.

Different strokes and all, but especially in Avengers and CATWS, I see a sympathetic character of the smart, stoic, and sarcastic variety, who wants to do the right thing, and is fiercely loyal to the people who give her a chance, but will slide right into those shades of grey for the greater good.

The Buffy stunt swaps were heinous, especially as SMG's weight changed during her season. As one of her doubles said "If I were her size, I couldn't do the stunts." And if memory serves, after Pruittgate they went to two doubles instead of one--a gymnastics double and a fighting double, both of whom I could still tell apart from each other.

As for Black Widow, it's like they weren't even trying: [link] This [link] I didn't know about until just now.

And now that she's pregnant for the filming of Ultron...