How many stunt changes could you call for the male characters? ANd how many for Black Widow? It just stank of a lack of respect to me. Training her out of pushing a gun, or getting her to act like aiming and recoil are things should be rudimentary.

Chris Evans always looked like he was fighting, even some of the time he was wearing the mask. Determining that ScarJo just got replaced by a guy just took a second watch, never mind all the IM2 "I must put my hair in my face now, because a fight is going to start."

You can take female fighting and badassedness seriously (cf Fast and Furious, esp 6), but for some reason Joss didn't care, and don't for a second imagine I didn't bitch about Buffy too. But the writing was much better, and IMO SMG is a better actor. Never mind the lower bar TV in the first place.

Her characterisation was al least half breast, 1/4 ass , and 100% not up to the standards set for women in action in movies.

Remember--I'm not a gun expert. I've used them, I'm decent at them, but it wouldn't have taken that for me to work out that moving the gun while you're firing is going to fuck your shot up. And if they can take the time for the men to look amazing....well, I just don't dig the female fandom love for her. All I see is an insult.

I never notice any of the stuntspeople. I guess I am unobservant.

I never notice any of the stuntspeople. I guess I am unobservant.

Me, neither. Well, once in a while on Buffy episodes that I had watched a gazillion times (Becoming Pt. 2, for instance). But pretty much anything else? Nope. Never notice. And I know nothing about guns/arrows/swords/etc., so that doesn't ping me.

(I also know nothing about period clothing, so THAT doesn't ping me, either. I remember people having an issue with...buttons, maybe? in Cowboys vs. Aliens, and ISTG my reaction was "Haven't buttons always been around?" [When I stop to think about it, I know they haven't, but I can't tell you when they were introduced, so I have no idea.] The cowboys would have had to be wearing Disco Stu clothes with goldfish platform shoes for me to think something was off.)

I'm suddenly realizing I might be the ideal movie viewer.

I disagree about the relative acting chops. I love SMG as Buffy, but haven't really be able to buy her in any of the other things I've seen her in, which is a fair amount, because Buffy. SJ, I've been watching since she was a kid doing indies, and I've enjoyed her as multiple characters. (Honestly, I've watched some awful stuff that was mainly redeemed for me by her performance. *Cough*Nanny Diaries*Cough*)

I can call a few for the male actors, TBH, which says more about my obsessive rewatching of some fight scenes more than anything else.

Different strokes and all, but especially in Avengers and CATWS, I see a sympathetic character of the smart, stoic, and sarcastic variety, who wants to do the right thing, and is fiercely loyal to the people who give her a chance, but will slide right into those shades of grey for the greater good.

The Buffy stunt swaps were heinous, especially as SMG's weight changed during her season. As one of her doubles said "If I were her size, I couldn't do the stunts." And if memory serves, after Pruittgate they went to two doubles instead of one--a gymnastics double and a fighting double, both of whom I could still tell apart from each other.

As for Black Widow, it's like they weren't even trying: [link] This [link] I didn't know about until just now.

And now that she's pregnant for the filming of Ultron...

I can call a few for the male actors, TBH

Is that call because "Oh, he did something amazingly gymnastic and he's also wearing his mask or it's been shot from behind, or is it because the character pulls something over their face before the fight or changes size?

I mean, there are times I know it's not the actor under there, but that's because that's how movies work. With Black Widow it was mostly "oh, switching now, are we?" or "What the fuck happened to your shoulder muscles????"

And those are during first watch.

I will maintain that despite being martially abysmal, SMG played a better Buffy than ScarJo plays Black Widow.

And all those things that people pointed to in order to show she was multilayered--she got to do them because she was the chick and you can't (yet, hopefully), have your male character be that kind of vulnerable.

I want to see Iron Man pause, sniffle, and then go kick some ass, but only girls get that "Oh, I'm a bit scared and this hurts but I'm a professional so step out of my way" character note. That's not progress. That's reinforcing female vulnerability while giving none to the men.

Full disclosure: I've never thought ScarJo a) could act b) was pretty c) wasn't getting cast a decent amount because of a pretty good rack (zip down your costume Cap--I bet that looks nice too).

Is that call because "Oh, he did something amazingly gymnastic and he's also wearing his mask or it's been shot from behind, or is it because the character pulls something over their face before the fight or changes size?

Ass-recognition software, apparently.

So changes in size/shape.

I think it is totally fair to not like Scar Jo as an actress. I don't agree with that, but that is how opinions work. I can't blame her or the character for the stunt work, fighting stance, or action shots. That is not her job to get right. Blame Joss, sure, but this conversation began with "Let's not have a Black Widow movie let's have Captain Marvel instead" and I see no reason to trust that any of the action/fighting/casting/directing decisions would be better (by your criteria) there. I dont have any faith that there will be a female superhero with a realistic physique in many many years. I have plenty of agreement with you on the let's-make-our-female-characters-more-realistic front in general but that seems to be a Marvel creative team thing, not a Black Widow Specific thing. I bet if they decided they wanted or cared about that, Scar Jo would be game to do her best, which I bet would be pretty good considering her physical limitations.

Maybe you still wouldn't like her, but at least you could blame her fairly

(I think her early casting had as much to do with her voice as her rack. It was definitely the most memorable part of her role in Ghost World, which is where I met her. And I don't remember her rack being featured in Lost in Translation, either, but gravelly voice was all there. I know that movie has its detractors, but it stands as one of my favorites and I think she is wonderful in it, so I can't think she is a bad acress.)

I think her early casting had as much to do with her voice as her rack.

I'm with you there. Perhaps even later casting! Her rack is irrelevant in Her, but her voice is fantastic.

And all those things that people pointed to in order to show she was multilayered--she got to do them because she was the chick and you can't (yet, hopefully), have your male character be that kind of vulnerable.

So, it doesn't count, then? The nuances of the character don't matter because she only got to do them because she's a girl? I don't get it. Plenty of dudebros despise the character for those same vulnerabilities that she was *allowed* to have because she's female. Dudebros aren't thinking, hey, how come my manly heroes don't get to have a vulnerable emotional moment just because they're men? They think it's a weakness she HAS to have because she's a chick and you're thinking it's a character point she GOT to have because she's a chick. Either way, she can't win, because she's a chick. No matter what Natasha or ScarJo does, both men and women are going to pull her apart for it.

There are movies I've seen just because Scarlett Johansson was in them, I've never watched anything just because SMG was in it. To me, SMG is a technically excellent actor but lacks any charisma. ScarJo is at least as good an actress as SMJ, and no worse at the action scenes, and also looks good in her clothes. If Buffy can kill vampires in a loose spaghetti-strap camisole, Natasha can fight aliens in a catsuit with the neck unzipped a bit. It's all unrealistic. I mean, I get it; I wish I didn't have to compare Hawkeye unfavorably to an animated film, but it isn't the character's fault or the actor's fault that the stunts and the action aren't done as well as they could be. And in the end, personally, I don't really care. I don't really care that Hawkeye is wearing 800 armguards - whether it's because Renner can't learn how to shoot a bow without hurting himself or because Joss thought they looked more cooler than one. I don't care if Black Widow unzips the neck of her catsuit; I would too, those things are hot, and not just in the fun way. (If they really wanted to highlight her rack, they would've put her in a push-up bra and unzipped that thing a lot further. As it was, I barely even noticed it was unzipped.) I care that Black Widow never had to be rescued (except from The Hulk, but no shame there), that she wasn't anyone's girlfriend, that she was smart as well as brave and fight-y, that she never deferred to the men or stood in the background looking pretty while the men talked and made decisions, that she had that coveted "agency" we're always talking about female characters needing. She made decisions, she moved the plot forward, in several instances. That's what matters to me, not that the stunt doubles were visible or that ScarJo wasn't taught how to pretend to fire a gun well.