It's literalized at the end with him wearing the gag.

That doesn't retroactively put it in the plot, though.

This. I truly don't see where in Thor or Avengers (until the literal gag) Loki was stifled. Using those 2 movies as the text (i.e., not comics, not Norse mythology [Tim REALLY wants a movie with woman!Loki...no surprise there]), I don't see Loki being stifled, oppressed, cast aside, etc.

How many people here were fans of Spike?

I don't need any inherent correlation between "fans of" and "empathise with", though.

I didn't think Spike was a misunderstood woobie. Hot and evil, but no woobie.

Hot and evil, but no woobie.

Not is season 2, for sure. But he did get plenty woobified later. And I think that's where a lot of folks here lost interest in him. Like Buffy, you like your villains death-ray-destroy-Metropolis evil, without any hint of sentimentality.

I don't need any inherent correlation between "fans of" and "empathise with", though.

I don't think there has to be, but I think there often is for many fans. Which is why your dash is so covered in Loki. We're all very sentimental.

I posed the questions of "what was his motivation/plan" on IO9, and pretty much no two people had the same answer.

That's surprising to me. I haven't seen Thor and I've only seen Avengers once (so far), but "conquer the earth and enslave humanity" seems pretty obvious. Since that's what he's says he's gonna do.

"what was his motivation/plan"

I think having seen Thor is actually a little necessary for that. Joss did a good job with showing the "conquer the earth and enslave humanity", but I think Thor shows more to his motivation. I'll leave you with something that was reposted by Fay, someone else's words, but I feel explains a lot for those of us who are Loki fans: [link]

Loki wasn't really the one in control in The Avengers. He was causing all the havoc and mischief and wanted to be king and get back at Thor. But the leader (the Other?) had some kind of control over Loki.

He threatened to hurt Loki so badly that pain would feel sweet.

I don't know if that added to Loki's anger and resentment. But he can't even attempt to take over the Earth and be a king without relying on someone else and being at their mercy.

I haven't seen Thor in awhile, but I think Loki resented being the second son. He wanted to be King and even if he was Odin's son that was never going to happen with Thor around. Finding out he was adopted just magnified all of that.

But the leader (the Other?) had some kind of control over Loki.

I think Loki was the first person that scepter was used on. It was used by the Other to communicate with Loki at the Other's will, not Loki's. We saw both Hawkeye and Don Blake get free of the scepter's control through "cognitive recalibration." What was Loki getting flung around by the Hulk and smashed into concrete other than another cognitive recalibration?

Hot and evil, but no woobie.

Yeah, same for me. And I have a long-standing fascination with villains. It's just that Loki doesn't hit my particular "Yay evil!" buttons, and I'm fascinated by how a lot of fandom has glommed onto him.

Part of it may be the woobie thing. I can see how Loki is an evil woobie who needs someone to understand him, but it isn't fangirl nip to me, because I want the villains I fangirl over to not be woobies. (That word has lost all meaning to me, now. Woobie woobie woobie.) I don't want to stroke their hair and comfort them, I want bad guys who gleefully cause mayhem and destruction because it's fun.

(Yes, I am an unrepentant Lestat fangirl. What?)

I had no clarity with Loki. He just seemed to be doing stuff to do stuff.

Loki = CHAOS! He likes fucking shit up. Chaotic evil all the way, baby.