Hot and evil, but no woobie.

Yeah, same for me. And I have a long-standing fascination with villains. It's just that Loki doesn't hit my particular "Yay evil!" buttons, and I'm fascinated by how a lot of fandom has glommed onto him.

Part of it may be the woobie thing. I can see how Loki is an evil woobie who needs someone to understand him, but it isn't fangirl nip to me, because I want the villains I fangirl over to not be woobies. (That word has lost all meaning to me, now. Woobie woobie woobie.) I don't want to stroke their hair and comfort them, I want bad guys who gleefully cause mayhem and destruction because it's fun.

(Yes, I am an unrepentant Lestat fangirl. What?)

I had no clarity with Loki. He just seemed to be doing stuff to do stuff.

Loki = CHAOS! He likes fucking shit up. Chaotic evil all the way, baby.

I feel especially empowered to answer the question I posed yesterday, because I just got back from my second viewing. And...I didn't see Loki say he wanted to enslave humanity. Not in words like that, anyway. I mean, you can come and blow us up because you want to raze the planet, or maybe you want to use our manpower in your unobtainium mines, or you want us to be your batteries, or or or...

There's still no there there for Loki as far as I can tell. In fact, I came away from it thinking he did it all to get Thor back in the same place as him. It's the threat of destroying Earth that gets the massive effort made to send him across the void. It's the first time they've seen each other since the events in Thor, and how else was it going to happen?

For some reason, the dominion over Earth still came across really vague and futless, and it didn't all come together until Thor got zapped back.

So that's what I'm going to go with, but I also think it's still a weakness of the movie.

Other weaknesses, albeit trivial: not as much effort put into making Black Widow's stunts seamless--I only really noticed the stitches once for all the other heroes. Also, Tony making grunty faces when doing "strenuous" things in the suit. Those aren't your muscles working, Tony. That just looks kinda weird. When he was battered and in pain, sure, that made sense, but he got all exerty before that happened.

And...lo and behold, I recast Colin as Hawkeye and had a much better time.

I didn't purposefully spend most of yesterday rewatching Captain America with the intent of watching Avengers again first thing this morning, but that recency, combined with the fact that I wasn't in as much pain this time round, and it was a whole different movie. I noticed so many more things, and was much more affected. Humans on Avengers are clearly Hobbits in Middle Earth to me (which wouldn't surprise Tolkien one bit), and I got similarly weepy at our efforts in the middle of the super powered battle.

I think this movie *really* did force well. The massive strength and constitution of the Hulk and Thor and Loki and the enhanced constitution of Cap came across really well, better than in any superhero movie I've seen (note, haven't seen the Norton Hulk). I found that simply amazing.

And, Cap is weirdly my second favourite superhero on the big screen. Like, please fix Wolverine, because he's slipped to third place, and I'd never have predicted that happening. But Chris Evans emoted the fuck out of him, and I haven't been overwhelmed by nobility in fights in such a long time.

I think it was a really great character note that Cap was never concerned with an exit plan for any of his exertions. Not that he was kamikaze or acting with a angsty disregard for his safety, just that everything else was prioritised over his life. Just like how he went out in his movie. And, perhaps tellingly, that's Tony's arc in the movie--he's a bit regressed from his own flicks, and way high on himself at the start, but the final thing he does is with a similar focus on getting it done and no pause for survival instinct to kick in that Cap has displayed all the time he's been on screen, from him jumping on the grenade in his flick through the end here.

I really really liked it.

And Loki...still zero empathy. But he's a fun nutso.

Remind me in Thor--where's the point where they go yes THAT Thor and Loki, and everyone else accepts them as reasonable facsimiles of Norse gods? Because Natasha seemed pretty cavalier with that shorthand, and that doesn't seem very...her. Certainly not properly Soviet, anyway. But when Cap had his rejoinder of "one god", I was on his side. Also, in the middle of a huge fangirl fit, but whatevs.

Oh--another thing I disliked about how they did Black Widow--it was really effective when she was all gaspy and almost on the threshold of breakdowns in the initial interrogation and then with Loki, but it was undermined by the fact that we saw her pretty much that breathy and vulnerable looking in moments when she was alone. None of the guys had similar moments, and I didn't like that she did.

[redacted]

I don't think that Loki's reasons for trying to take over the Earth are very rational or mature. But Loki didn't come across as rational and mature, just trying to hurt his brother.

But I do think in Avengers he's just random guy with irrational feels towards his brother, no matter how much they tried to talk it out.

In Thor, there's at least context for the crazy things he does.

I'm still a shade perplexed by them being the Thor and the Loki. Are they that on other planets as well?

Oh, and if the staff was working on him, it wasn't in the same way it worked on Hawkeye or Selvig, because there were physical indications of that. It would have to be in the same way it worked on the rest of the Avengers, and I don't think that's pointed to by the text.

What he's doing in The Avengers is a carry over from what happened in Thor. That's the way I read what was happening. The Avengers is him trying to get revenge for what Thor did to him in Thor.

I don't think the staff was working on Loki.

I think it was a conduit to communication but not controlling him.

The way I saw it, Loki cut a deal with the Chaturi leader, but the leader is stronger than Loki so he keeps threatening Loki. And this also fuels Loki's rage.

In my head the leader of the Chaturi was using Loki as a way to get to Earth, and then when Loki was no longer useful the leader was going to kill/imprison Loki.

What he's doing in The Avengers is a carry over from what happened in Thor

Yes, but Avengers should ideally stand on its own, and my point is that this is pretty much the only place it fails. Iron Man and Cap are explained and demonstrated really well, but Loki is underpainted.