I've been seeing the totem's as dual purpose. Or maybe that the original purpose is to be able to tell if you are lost in a a dream, but also the fucked-up worst-case scenario what-if of are you really awake?
Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing? Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
'War Stories'
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Juliebird - Oct 12, 2010 3:17:58 pm PDT #11547 of 30000
I am the fly who dreams of the spider
Sean K - Oct 12, 2010 3:22:39 pm PDT #11548 of 30000
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty
Why would Dom need to distinguish between his dream and someone else's at the end of the movie? Doesn't he need to know if he's awake or not?
That's a good question for further exploration. I'm just saying that's the purpose explicitly described for them in the film, when Cobb tells Ariadne what they are for. It is never stated elsewhere that they are for telling when you are awake.
§ ita § - Oct 12, 2010 3:29:14 pm PDT #11549 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I thought it was to tell if you were in someone else's dream or not. Which is different from if you were in someone's dream or yours.
Juliebird - Oct 12, 2010 3:30:21 pm PDT #11550 of 30000
I am the fly who dreams of the spider
But isn't that the point of the ending? And, if the one, then the other? That is, if they can tell, irrefutably, that you are dreaming, then can they not also tell, irrefutably, that you are awake?
§ ita § - Oct 12, 2010 3:40:03 pm PDT #11551 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
There are three possibilities: you are dreaming, you are awake, you are in someone else's dream. Your top would spin forever in someone else's dream, and fall in your dream or if you are awake.
Right?
I'm now totally confused.
Jessica - Oct 12, 2010 3:44:47 pm PDT #11552 of 30000
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
Your top would spin forever in someone else's dream, and fall in your dream or if you are awake.
That doesn't help Cobb either, though - if the top obeys the laws of physics in his own dreams AND in reality, why spin it at the end?
§ ita § - Oct 12, 2010 3:47:28 pm PDT #11553 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I'm not saying it helps. Just trying to lay out the limits of metaphor--if you can't let someone else touch it because then they will have it behave correctly in their dream, won't it behave correctly in your own?
Sean K - Oct 12, 2010 3:48:14 pm PDT #11554 of 30000
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty
Yeah, the three possibilities are awake, dreaming, in someone else's dream. But I'm not sure you've got the top spinning forever in the correct dream. But I'm not sure you're wrong either.
Either way, the line struck me as not being about telling if you're awake necessarily, but telling if you're in someone else's dream or your own.
Sean K - Oct 12, 2010 3:48:42 pm PDT #11555 of 30000
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty
I also think Nolan was deliberately murky about this.
Juliebird - Oct 12, 2010 3:48:53 pm PDT #11556 of 30000
I am the fly who dreams of the spider
I don't think the "someone else's dream" is a valid situation. I think dreaming is dreaming, whether it's your dream or someone else's. It's strictly two situations. I think the top really comes frequently into play when you are either stuck in limbo or are in someone else's dream. Two situations where you don't realize you are dreaming.
And the end, it's for us to figure out if Cobb is awake or dreaming.