Incidentally, ita, I'm sorry if how I broached elements of this discussion pinged you, particularly my broad characterization of Maori culture. (Which, admittedly, I only know from things like Once Were Warriors and Keri Hulme's The Bone People.)

I think it's valid to use race as shorthand artistically.

Shorthand for what? Because I can't think of what race could stand in for, could mean to convey, without it devolving very quickly into the broadest of sterotypes.

I'm pretty sure imdb lists the cast in credits order, so when the credits roll at the end of Last Samurai, Ken Watanabe should be first.

We use accents as shorthand while playing D&D, dwarves are scottish, halflings are high-pitched, goblins hiss. I'm trying to think of a movie that uses racial shorthand that's not a racist movie.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I had nothing to add to the discussion. I want Hollywood to behave in a way that it never has and never will.

There's also a related issue, the burden of expectation about creating a positive image for a particular group or ethnicity, often enforced within that group. Spike Lee continually coming under fire for any negative portrayals of black culture.

Speaking only for myself, I think it's more about the range of characters portrayed, rather than solely positive. I'm thinking about hearing a liberal dude state that female characters in the new BSG were no better than the old, and then back it up by talking about how Starbuck was a promiscuous boozer.

As for the Greek/Italian thing, it still doesn't feel the same, though I struggle to articulate why.

As for the Greek/Italian thing, it still doesn't feel the same, though I struggle to articulate why.

At this point in time, in the USA, both Greek and Italian are considered subsets of White. The default Person in both Hollywood movies and current American society is (Straight Christian) White Male. Therefore the vast majority of Hollywood roles are open to men of pretty much any European heritage in a way that they are not open to minorities.

ION, I went to the Stone premiere and after-party last night, and the best parts of the evening were coming thisclose to tripping over Ed Norton on the way in, and peeing in the stall next to Milla Jovovich on the way out.

I knew nothing about the film going into it, and now that I've seen it I feel exactly the same way. It's a deliberately paced character study, except that I still, at the end of 2 hours, have no fucking idea who these characters are or what I was supposed to learn about them in the course of the film. People at the party were overheard praising it's "subtlety" and "atmosphere" which for some films are valid compliments, but in this case I assume were code for "I'd rather not say how I really feel until I'm out of earshot of the cast and crew."

Also, Milla has freakishly long nipples. They look like toes. (Note - this information was in the film, not the bathroom.)

The after-party was mostly models. I thought I looked okay yesterday until I was in a room full of women over a foot taller than me who make their living standing around looking gorgeous. De Niro had a table reserved for him, but if he showed up at all it was after we'd gone.

Hec, I can't lie--I was taken aback at the idea of an ethnicity being suited for a range of roles just plain on principle. Based on a movie and a book doesn't really make it sit much better.

People take what roles they want from what is open to them. Please open more. End of story.

I'm also not down with the implication that they should be grateful for getting any roles (Uruk Hai or go home), but I'm having a notoriously short-tempered couple weeks, and my comprehension is stilted, so I'm going to leave it that it's just what I'm taking away from your statement, not what you said.

Champion of race blind casting, Norse god Idris Elba, may be up for Luke Cage. That's a lot of alright.

Laga, as a frequent contributor to imdb, I would encourage you not to get too attached to things like the order of their listings. It's not official in the least. Often accurate and useful, but not official. And much less low profile than promotional material.

People take what roles they want from what is open to them. Please open more. End of story.

I do think that's the ideal, and certainly there are more opportunities than there were. Part of me cynically feels like it's just all going to be money driven. Or not even that, since there are plenty of untapped markets that go underserved because of a blindness on the issue.

OTOH, I look at something like Joss' casting over the years. He did take notice of the criticism of the whiteness of the BtVS cast and he realized that it wasn't exactly a hardship casting Gina Torres in his new series. It's just a matter of being open to it at the inception stage.

I'm also not down with the implication that they should be grateful for getting any roles (Uruk Hai or go home)

Yeah, I think my problem in articulating that issue is that I was just thinking about the visuals I had from the movie. So I was thinking of the Uruk Hai roles as largely being extras and I had some narrative in my mind of how they were cast. But I didn't really have any basis for that narrative. I really wasn't thinking about Maori actors going out on casting calls.

At this point in time, in the USA, both Greek and Italian are considered subsets of White. The default Person in both Hollywood movies and current American society is (Straight Christian) White Male. Therefore the vast majority of Hollywood roles are open to men of pretty much any European heritage in a way that they are not open to minorities.

Bingo. This. And the default Person in the Hollywood writer's room, last I saw, was also White Male (something like 90%, as I recall).

I've noticed in TV that the more non-white writers on staff, the better the representation gets. It's not like there aren't still black guys getting cast as criminals, but they're also getting cast as cops, nurses, random people of all class levels and guilt levels, etc. I think when I ran it in my head, having at least two non-white writers seemed to be the point at which there's a critical mass for the, "err... you know how that looks, right?" voice.