megan, see this post in Bitches.

What do you think of the way Tolkien treats race within the trilogy?

I think it's a serious problem. I'm not thrilled about his concept of women, either. I am able to love his work nonetheless, while still acknowledging the problems.

Jackson had the opportunity to ameliorate some of that in his visual presentation, but chose instead to exacerbate the problems. He did a disservice even to the female characterizations as well.

But I hold Jackson to a different standard, because he is a product of the current time and should be aware of and alert to the issues. Tolkien's issues wrt racism are fairly well documented and probably not too extraordinary for his time. I still consider them problematic, but I recognize the environment in which he was creating.

Look at it this way. I love the movie Breakfast At Tiffany's, which includes one of the most heinous yellowface depictions of an Asian in all of Hollywood. It, too, is a product of its time, and a problematic one. If someone were to do a remake of that movie today, I would expect that filmmaker to make choices and decisions about that character based on what he or she knows about the existing world and prejudices.

megan, see this post in Bitches.

Thanks, I was confused.

Yeah, I definitely side with ita on this one.

FWIW, I don't feel like I have a side. I'm arguing a point, not taking a position. And I'm not doing it out of contentiousness, but because I don't think the subject is simple and I want to hear some of the arguments hammered out to the finer points. I understand the issue with more nuance when it's discussed.

ita's point about Jackson not needing to bring forward Tolkien's racial issues is an interesting one to me, and raises other questions.

There's a parallel there with the issues of casting in the live action Airbender movie.

If Middle Earth is a fantasy world rooted in specific European traditions which allude to race in specific ways, though it's portrayed as Elves/Men/Dwarves/Orcs.

Then how does that relate to Avatar: The Last Airbender which is a fantasy world rooted in specific Asian traditions which allude to race in specific ways, though it's portrayed as Water Tribe/Fire Nation/Earth Nation/Air Temples.

It's not an exact parallel and there are important distinctions in the arguments. But the distinctions seem worth making.

juliana's point about race in casting Shakespeare was particularly interesting as she alluded to the hundreds of years that have passed since the plays were written. Which implies that there's not just an historical component to how race is portrayed, but a spectrum of distance in time as well.

Which is an interesting point to me.

Thanks, Liese, I know how important Tolkien's work is to you and I know how seriously you think about these issues.

I think everybody has to do a dance around these things, whether it's the anti-semitism in some beloved cozy old British mystery or the problematic sexism in the Rolling Stones.

Some are harder to swallow than others.

I am very much enjoying this discussion. I can't seem to get my thoughts into coherent sentences but I really want you guys to keep talking so maybe somebody will speak for me.

David, one difference that I see is that LotR and A:TLA exist within the wider context of cinematic history, a history that has been dominated by white people. So if Asian actors can't even get cast in leading roles in a movie based on anime that draws very very obviously from different Asian cultures, how do they get cast? Also, those are whole cultures, not necessarily ugly stereotypes.

I think it's valid to use race as shorthand artistically.

I was annoyed at Airbender because I wanted to see an Asian play Aang and Pacific Islanders as the Water Tribe but I think Shyalaman's full of shit when he says it wasn't a concious choice to make all the bad guys brown.

I'm mad that Al Pacino's not Jewish (though I admit I haven't seen his Merchant of Venice).

I remember the first time I saw Dances With Wolves, I didn't give the movie time to explain itself when I saw a non-Native American woman in Sioux clothing, I just got indignant.

It was really distracting watching Prince of Persia when all the Persians were white dudes with British accents.

I think it's valid to use race as shorthand artistically.

Do you think it's also valid to use something like sexual orientation artistically? Homosexual as token symbol of other?