megan, see this post in Bitches.

Thanks, I was confused.

Yeah, I definitely side with ita on this one.

FWIW, I don't feel like I have a side. I'm arguing a point, not taking a position. And I'm not doing it out of contentiousness, but because I don't think the subject is simple and I want to hear some of the arguments hammered out to the finer points. I understand the issue with more nuance when it's discussed.

ita's point about Jackson not needing to bring forward Tolkien's racial issues is an interesting one to me, and raises other questions.

There's a parallel there with the issues of casting in the live action Airbender movie.

If Middle Earth is a fantasy world rooted in specific European traditions which allude to race in specific ways, though it's portrayed as Elves/Men/Dwarves/Orcs.

Then how does that relate to Avatar: The Last Airbender which is a fantasy world rooted in specific Asian traditions which allude to race in specific ways, though it's portrayed as Water Tribe/Fire Nation/Earth Nation/Air Temples.

It's not an exact parallel and there are important distinctions in the arguments. But the distinctions seem worth making.

juliana's point about race in casting Shakespeare was particularly interesting as she alluded to the hundreds of years that have passed since the plays were written. Which implies that there's not just an historical component to how race is portrayed, but a spectrum of distance in time as well.

Which is an interesting point to me.

Thanks, Liese, I know how important Tolkien's work is to you and I know how seriously you think about these issues.

I think everybody has to do a dance around these things, whether it's the anti-semitism in some beloved cozy old British mystery or the problematic sexism in the Rolling Stones.

Some are harder to swallow than others.

I am very much enjoying this discussion. I can't seem to get my thoughts into coherent sentences but I really want you guys to keep talking so maybe somebody will speak for me.

David, one difference that I see is that LotR and A:TLA exist within the wider context of cinematic history, a history that has been dominated by white people. So if Asian actors can't even get cast in leading roles in a movie based on anime that draws very very obviously from different Asian cultures, how do they get cast? Also, those are whole cultures, not necessarily ugly stereotypes.

I think it's valid to use race as shorthand artistically.

I was annoyed at Airbender because I wanted to see an Asian play Aang and Pacific Islanders as the Water Tribe but I think Shyalaman's full of shit when he says it wasn't a concious choice to make all the bad guys brown.

I'm mad that Al Pacino's not Jewish (though I admit I haven't seen his Merchant of Venice).

I remember the first time I saw Dances With Wolves, I didn't give the movie time to explain itself when I saw a non-Native American woman in Sioux clothing, I just got indignant.

It was really distracting watching Prince of Persia when all the Persians were white dudes with British accents.

I think it's valid to use race as shorthand artistically.

Do you think it's also valid to use something like sexual orientation artistically? Homosexual as token symbol of other?

I remember people getting all up in arms that Tom Cruise was playing "The Last Samurai" but if you watch the movie you see it's actually Ken Watanabe. (And according to imdb he got top billing)

Homosexual as token symbol of other?

I'm not sure how this would work. Is there an example?

And I can't say I'm not bugged that whites are so constantly portrayed as the good guys. Race is problematic because racism is a problem. But if people of so many different ethnicities hadn't been used to portray Native Americans over the years, I wouldn't have missed a major plot point of Dances with Wolves.