No Cass, though?

Hey! I was here! (sorry, I can read past Cas pretty well, but...)

I wish some of the deities represented would have taken God's approach (from what we understand) and said they did not want to be involved

Wouldn't they just ... not have been there. There are a LOT of gods over all of time. Far more than were represented.

I think they've made him more complicated, and heartbreaking. Not trashed.

I watched an interview with JDM saying he didn't think he'd play John again because the story had moved on and because the character had changed so much. Which? Well, it's his take and all but I think he's (JDM) just so damn charming that we thought much more woobie thoughts of John for a while.

I am not anti-John but he wasn't most focused on raising his boys, he wanted revenge first and foremost. Which morphed into saving people, hunting things and the family business but it started with wanting revenge for his wife's death.

When we're in a PC huff, it's all one big injustice.

:: tattoos this on fandom's ass ::

Yeah, the women of color have a pretty good survival rate for Supernatural (but there haven't been any recurring ones, so there is that). It's the non-white men who bite it and all the recurring women.

On a whim I'm rewatching Croatoan. Damn, that's only season 2 and Dean's already tired. Then the year and waiting to die, then remembering Hell, then the Apocalypse. He's been wanting to give up for so long. Wallowing in misery and hopelessness is where I'm at, so it never bothered me when he got all giving-up-y and apathetic, but for two or three years of just wanting to lie down, I can really see how it all just came to a head. This wasn't a recent development. Jus the apocalyptic straw.

I know I say some harsh things about him, but I totally don't think Kripke ruined his character. Along with the angry drinking stuff we've had this season, we've also had his portrayal by Matt Cohen, and those have been of an innocent and loving guy. I think they've made him more complicated, and heartbreaking. Not trashed.

Someone needs to get this message to JDM so he doesn't lose all interest. My perception of what he has said is that he "played the role that everything that he did was for his family and sure he made mistakes," but he loved the boys. Nothing has been shown, or said, to dispute this especially with the Matt Cohen portrayal. Fans yelling alcoholic abuser doesn't make it so, and I hope they haven't soured him on the role completely. eta:

I am not anti-John but he wasn't most focused on raising his boys, he wanted revenge first and foremost. Which morphed into saving people, hunting things and the family business but it started with wanting revenge for his wife's death.

Why do you think he wanted revenge over destroying the thing that was going to ultimately destroy Sam if he didn't get to it first? I think it's like has been said, he thought his family was in danger (Home) and then he learned the part that Sam was to play so there might have been more earnestness in the hunt. Are we told other than through the boys when they are pissed that John wanted revenge the most?

Honestly I like having John not be a saint and accept him for all of his flaws. That is the character that I find interesting. I definitely think he made mistakes and wrong choices, but a character that is trashed? I think John is the same guy that I saw in Season One. Maybe I just assumed all the rough stuff about him from the beginning so I don't get the anger towards him (except from the boys).

Nothing has been shown, or said, to dispute this especially with the Matt Cohen portrayal.

Perzactly.

In my rereading I just noticed that the porn we see Sam watching in the episode whose name I've forgotten again is Casa Erotica IV. I guess they knock out those at a healthy rate.

OK, this is the pettiest of things to be annoyed by, but Dean saying "full on Babar" undercut that "I don't have any books about elephants" from before.

Maybe he went and researched Babar after Sam, Interrupted and there are now books on Babar in their trunk.

Or, more likely, he had read Babar, and that's where they got the name from and he was just lying.

there are now books on Babar in their trunk.

Heh, elephant books in the trunk.

But the second is more likely. Clearly he's read books about elephants.

Is Babar popular in America? I'm out of touch.

Evidently we need fic of him reading Babar to Sam to get him to sleep.

I totally grew up reading them.

And when I donated to an elephant rescue thing for my dad for Christmas and got him a tiny stuffed elephant, I suggested that he could give the toy to one of the kids because it was really more representational. He replied that, no, he was not giving up Babar.

My experience is that Babar is familiar here. And awesome. Totally awesome.