Sam's killed innocent people before though, like the host of that crossroads demon in Season 3.

Yeah, what I can't see him doing is routinely killing innocents without directly offing a demon as a result. Human sacrifice to directly kill demons or seeing the death of innocents as collateral damage? Yeah Sam has fallen that far. Killing people to gain strength for demon fighting, a more sophisticated type of vampirism? Nope can't see that. My only problem with the "Sex with Ruby" theory is that I can't see him continuing to be squicked by it.

I can see Ruby offering up some murderer or child molester or whatnot as "the price of doing business" and getting Sam used to the killing before moving on to more innocent targets.

I can totally see that happening down the line (and not very far down it, really) but I don't see it, at this stage and in this frame of mind. As with the sexing, Ruby's going to need to Pied Piper him down that road a bit. Sam tends to make the big decisions in times of crisis, and I just don't think he's there yet.

Maybe I'm dumb or oblivious, or both, but I thought Ruby was saying Sam's getting rusty because he hasn't been practicing pulling demons lately, since he promised Dean he wouldn't use his psychic mojo. That the more he practices, the better at it he gets, the stronger his power. So, "all" he's doing is removing demons from the human host, saving the host if possible, and killing the demon in the process. I understood that the demon dies, rather than returning to hell, if Sam yanks it out of the host--it flames out, rather than coiling up in smoke to go elsewhere, so that imagery spelt "killed" to me, rather than merely exorcised.

So, Sam's only dilemna is that he's promised Dean (and Castiel and Uriel) that he wouldn't "pull" demons, because somehow that's playing into his evil side, even though he's putting down demons *and* saving the human host. It seems to me that those are both good things, but somehow his tapping into Azazel's gift, no matter if the result is good, is evil.

I just thought he'd gone off with Ruby to practice pulling demons and get his strength for the task back up to where it was when he quit doing that at Dean's behest.

I thought Ruby was saying Sam's getting rusty because he hasn't been practicing pulling demons lately, since he promised Dean he wouldn't use his psychic mojo

That's as far as I went too.

I thought there was a difference, because he said it *wasn't the psychic thing* that bothered him. So there must be something else she wants him to.

But then, I had very little sleep last night and am not fully coherent today.

Amy, that's what I thought too.

What did he manifest before he discovered he could out demons? I'm a bad fan, I don't remember.

He had precognitive dreams.

I think that whatever evil thing Ruby has him do is something to alleviate the psychic powered headaches he was getting.

I'm not so sure - the problem with Alistair wasn't that it hurt him, it was that he didn't have the power needed.

I guess it's too much to hope it was the precog dreams he didn't have the problem with.

The idea of Ruby meaning human sacrifice and him going along with it would really alienate me from the character unless handled with extreme delicacy.

Not sure I trust this team.