How long was it before the fanfic hit the interwebs concerning what Dean did to make sure Castiel wouldn't die a virgin post-getting chased out of the bordello?

About the time the sneak peak came out? I think?

I mean, I know that's when we started making the Bert and Ernie reenactment jokes.

That, that was new territory. Starting the apocalyse wasn't his fault, I don't think, or Dean's, even though they both had a hand in it. ...Sam and his choices regarding that nurse. No.

Yes. Sam stuffing the screaming woman into the trunk of the car was just...chilling.

The other thing I have a hard time with, and that I don't see being discussed amongst the fen, is Dean's 10 years as Torturer's Apprentice. The fact that he broke and began torturing others I do not have a problem with. He was in Hell, he was undergoing unimaginable horrors, I don't think that his surrendering to avoid further suffering is unforgiveable. What I DO think is morally questionable is the rest of his confession, the "and I enjoyed it" part. I find that as chilling as Sam and the nurse.

Also, I want Dean to tell Bobby and Sam about the first seal. It's beginning to remind me of Xander's secret ("Willow says kick his ass.") We don't have another 4 seasons or so to wait for the payoff on this one.

That, that was new territory. Starting the apocalyse wasn't his fault, I don't think, or Dean's, even though they both had a hand in it. They both can, and should, be forgiven, even by themselves. (Though getting there promises to be long and painful.) But Sam and his choices regarding that nurse. No. That's something I'd like to see him really grappling with.

Yes. I'm fairly confident that if Sam hadn't followed her plan at every turn, Lilith would have had another way to get herself killed on that altar when the time came to release Lucifer–possibly leading one or more of the shoot-first-ask-questions-later angels there, or giving another hunter the Colt. And it's excusable that one might be tricked into playing into her hands under the guise of a chance to kill her - who in the know wouldn't try to take her out if given a chance to? But the decision to sacrifice an innocent person to achieve his goal, that was evil. Willfully, intentionally doing wrong of the worst sort, the kind of thing Sam and Dean have destroyed dozens of monsters for. And I see no signs as yet that Sam understands that, or feels guilty about making that choice rather than about the pragmatic effects that are resulting from his being tricked.

He was in Hell, he was undergoing unimaginable horrors, I don't think that his surrendering to avoid further suffering is unforgiveable. What I DO think is morally questionable is the rest of his confession, the "and I enjoyed it" part. I find that as chilling as Sam and the nurse.

I find it a more understandable and forgivable breed of morally questionable, though, as well as one that was textually acknowledged by the character as very much wrong and horrible. After 30 years of torture, I expect the power and channeling of rage into torturing others would be a head rush of the most viseral kind.

We've also not touched on the fact that the people Dean's sins were committed against were already dead and in Hell. Given that the demons devoted well over a century of subjective time to torturing both him and John in trying to fulfill that prophecy about breaking a righteous man, I'm not left with the impression that the place was particularly brimming over with undeserving people.

The emotional and metaphysical cost to the torturer is probably the same either way, but from a third party perspective it's a lot easier to forgive if it wasn't innocent people who were pleading for mercy.

The "Dayenu" line had me falling out of the chair.

I know, right?

Morgana, wikipedia explains it better than I could, I think. [link]

I missed that line entirely. Must rewatch. My life, so hard.

No one remembers what the Raphael actor was in before? It's making me itch. It's at the tip of my brain. IMDB is no help.

BSG, I think.

He didn't look at all familiar to me. But I loved his voice.