If she's not evil, I don't like her anymore, and if she's evil and they don't kill her--weill, I still like them, but you know. Issue.

Evil or not, I think she's a gray area (now -- not initially, not in S1). Her current brand of evil reminds me of Crowley's -- not really focused on chaos or pain, but with self-interest driving her.

And at this point, I see Sam and Dean needing any supernatural allies with any power that they can depend on, more or less. Their resources are stretched way thin.

If she's not evil, I don't like her anymore, and if she's evil and they don't kill her--weill, I still like them, but you know. Issue.

Evil or not, I think she's a gray area (now -- not initially, not in S1). Her current brand of evil reminds me of Crowley's -- not really focused on chaos or pain, but with self-interest driving her.

And at this point, I see Sam and Dean needing any supernatural allies with any power that they can depend on, more or less. Their resources are stretched way thin.

I want to see her and Crowley hurt people. I want people to suffer as a result of their actions, even if it's not their primary motive. I want them to be demonic.

It's sort of how I want vampires to be like Joss's vampires, or--like Lenore--struggling to not be a blight on humanity.

I guess it might mean less Meg, and that's sad, but I just want bad.

If Dean died now, he'd spend thirty years in line until, what, he cut ahead? I don't like the grey. If I was going to bitch at anything over the past two years, it would be the nicificiation of Hell.

I guess I think that the writers mean to differentiate between levels of evil, or what makes up evil. But I think they've also shown that good isn't always snow white, too.

They established these characters, and developed them in the way that they did purposely.

It's sort of how I want vampires to be like Joss's vampires

We still get those, too.

We still get those, too.

But it seems that when they repeat characters across seasons, either they're the bad to take down, or they get neutered.

developed them in the way that they did purposely

Well, I'm not assuming anything gets written by mistake. I'm just explaining why their choices are ineffective for me.

I mean, honestly--how can you change Hell to irritating and boring? If Sam hadn't been locked in with Lucifer and Michael, it might not have been that bad. Lucifer knows how to bring it. But what Dean went through simply isn't there any more. They've taken away one of the extremes--it's not just Crowley that's changed, it's the universe.

I'm assuming that a Crowley that ran an old-style Hell would be too much for Cas to deal with and come back from, never mind him coming back himself? I felt in the end we had Cas doing worse things than Crowley, once his death toll piled up, with the angels with faces--Balthazar and Rachel were his people. Meanwhile Crowley's doing some torture of the other side, but has changed hell to standing around...and then Cas is slaughtering angels to establish his position.

It's awry. Crowley's not working for me anymore.

Meg was just on the border for me. I dig her needing protection, etc, at the end of the season, and the boys needing her more alive than cleaning house and killing her, and hope whatever Crowley's doing to her doesn't bore her to death.

But it seems that when they repeat characters across seasons, either they're the bad to take down, or they get neutered.

The problem with that is, a pure villain is boring after a while, and not that believable. If they were dodging Azazel for seven seasons in a row, they would have either defeated him or died of the constant Life-threatened stress.

Shoot, I forgot to add:

Well, I'm not assuming anything gets written by mistake.

I think a lot of people don't ever consider that storytelling is a lot of work. If they did, then they couldn't lobby for their own plotty desires so blatantly.

I'm not saying it's not a lot of work. But I'd rather have lost Crowley than end up with the stupid bland hell we got now. I think some people see the bureaucratic nature of the Leviathan the way I see that. Hell was the place with the hellhounds that tore Dean apart and gave him PTSD and started him down this self-medicating path and sleeping above the sheets with his clothes on. What they had to do to keep Crowley around in S8 (because I think they could have kept hell bad, and by extension him) if we weren't to see him again.

I'd love to hear Meg outsmarted him off camera and she's gone back to the Azazel/Alistair/Lilith way of things. I want it to still be worse than heaven. I want heaven to be a bad place when you think about it, but still better than flayed and raped and taunted and brought back to life and peeled and showered in fire ants.

Ugh. It's just not an ecosystem right now, and I don't think any recurring character was worth that shift to the world view.

Yeah, much as I love Richard Speight, I don't need to see Gabriel (or really any angels aside from Cas) again.

Having Gabriel come back is the sort of thing that can be nice in fic, depending on how it's handled, but you're right - I don't want to see him come back on the shows.

As for other angels, I would like some nod to what's going on in Heaven now that the archangels are gone and the rank and file have been seriously thinned out.

Meg could be used in a couple of interesting ways, but I have no idea where they're going. I think I'm more willing to have her around as a "devil you know" sort of friend, though.

I'd love to see her make a bid for Crowley's job. She'd do hell right, methinks.

This is adorable, but it's harder to see him (I feel it's expression more than features) than Jensen or Jared.

And this: [link] is where I got the link.

Tiny Castiel! Misha!

What they had to do to keep Crowley around in S8 (because I think they could have kept hell bad, and by extension him) if we weren't to see him again.

I guess for me, we've been to hell. Dean has been, Sam has been, I can't really imagine that they're going there again, so hell's design isn't that important to me. As a threat hanging over their heads, sure, I guess it should be, but I'm not completely clear that the two of them will wind up there when they're finally really truly dead.