I mean, seems clear he knows gods exist, he just didn't believe the Judeo Christian one existed. Is that an atheist position? And he doesn't seem to think the gods whose existence he knows of have anything special about them that separates them from a vampire, et al.

From a basic definition, he'd have to not believe in any gods existence for him to be an atheist, which isn't the case.

Yeah, atheism denies the existence of god. So that's what Dean was, even if he didn't use the word, until he met Castiel.

I have no idea what demons and vampires have to do with it, though. Vampires, at least, are not biblical creatures.

But Dean didn't deny the existence of gods. He was almost sacrificed to one in Scarecrow. They took a couple out in A Very Supernatural Christmas, and they thought they were chasing one in Tall Tales.

It's the Judeo Christian one he said didn't exist.

That's what I'm saying. Atheism implies the denial of All gods, pagan and Judeo Christian and Muslim and whatnot. So to be strict about it, him not believing in a Judeo Christian God while believing in pagan gods . . . Actually, back to my initial thought on the difference between knowing and believing: he knows pagan gods exist, but doesn't "believe" in them, in the faith and worship sense. But he outright doesn't believe in JC Superstar. No knowing, no believing, no faith, nothing.

Hmm...

It's a hard notion to define when the idea of "knowing God exists" in a "just about met Him" world. Because that's not something that Webster's dictionary has as a basis for a definition.

Atheism implies the denial of All gods, pagan and Judeo Christian and Muslim and whatnot.

I don't know about that, per se -- a devout Catholic of a certain generation is not going to believe in Buddha, or similar, but you couldn't call that person an atheist either, because they believe strongly in the Christian god.

So in my mind, Dean was an atheist when it came to God, but not gods in general.

I think maybe she means atheism is denial of any god? So it only takes believing in one to not be an atheist?

I'm not very clearheaded at the moment, so I dunno.

"Atheist" gets used in different ways. St. Augustine used to admit that Christians were atheists as to the Pagan gods, but believers as to Jesus and the "true god". So in the St. Augustine sense, and probably in the sense the word was used in his time one could be an Atheist in regard to some gods, while believing in others. So in his time, Christian was an atheist in regard to Zeus (Or Jupiter) but not in regard to Christ. One could I presume be an atheist in regard to all gods as well.

And I think if you believe a god exists, but don't like or trust him/her/it/himher/herhim/ you are not an atheist in regard to that. After all, Christians who believe in the Devil don't like trust or worship him - but are not atheists with regard to that. So I won't say whether Dean was once an atheist in regard to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God, but I would say Dean certainly at this point is not. But Dean still has no faith or trust or love for that God.

Of course just because Augustine used the word "atheist" in a certain way does not mean we do today.

Didn't Dean say he didn't believe in Castiel's god (I mean, if you're not willing to extrapolate from his rejection of the existence of angels)? Is that not enough to label him atheist in that regard?

Didn't he change his mind. Don't remember. Was only Castiel looking for God, or at some point were not the boys as well?