I've also seen people (I don't really like people) point out that Cas was lying during his profound bond speech, therefore there is no profound bond, because he must also have been lying with that sentence too.

Which...makes no sense. First, there's no reason every sentence had to be a lie, and secondly, THE WHOLE FREAKING LAST EPISODE was about bonds, and the betrayal of such. If there's no profound bond, the episode makes no sense. It's predicated on there being something to break.

But...hatas gotta hate.

I've also seen people (I don't really like people) point out that Cas was lying during his profound bond speech, therefore there is no profound bond, because he must also have been lying with that sentence too.

?Bwuh? I don't even get the justification for that. Obviously they're close. Castiel has been lying like a lying liar (like a Winchester, ya know) but that doesn't mean he doesn't care for Dean. From the viewers's standpoints' we've seen that he's saved the boys' lives over and over and over again, even when it's brought him nothing but aggravation.

Although I'd like to point out that bit about how Dean said he'd die for Castiel -- Sam said he'd die for him too. Castiel really has become one of the family now. Also, I thought (and maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part) that the profound bond was formed when Castiel raised Dean from perdition. The act of raising him, becoming his savior, formed the bond. If that's the case, shouldn't he also have a profound bond with Sam?

The act of raising him, becoming his savior, formed the bond.

Well, raising him and seasons 4 and 5 where he was pretty much imprinting on him and learning how to be a person.

Cas has grown close to both Winchesters, but I think it's pretty clear he was in Dean's pocket for a long time.

If that's the case, shouldn't he also have a profound bond with Sam?

I think the circumstances were different, though. And since Sam came back soulless, that could be a reason why there isn't. Also, what ita said.

He may have raised him from perdition, but apparently he didn't grip him tight.

Cas and Dean have a history, not just an event. It started from a rescue of a soul and rebuilding of his body, but it played out over a number of episodes. Cas pulled half of Sam out of Hell and then ignored him for a year. It's very different.

Yeah. Not that Sam and Castiel don't have friendship. They are way past "Sam of course is an abomination". But there is a profound difference in the bonds.

Incidentally Dean's "I'm not going to logic you. I'm asking you to stop man." Because if Dean considers you a brother than by god you are supposed to follow his orders. That does not even work with Sam any more. I wonder if Dean has ever considered that if he and Castiel are brothers, that maybe Cas is the older brother. So Cas, acting in the Dean role, deceived Dean and made moral compromises. So Dean did not have to. Treating Dean the way Dean treats Sam. Cas really did learn to be human from Dean. "Cat's in the cradle..."

What ita said, again.

I think one thing people forget about Sam, though, is that he isn't as demonstrative as Dean is. He doesn't hang all over Bobby, either, but you know how he feels about him. It doesn't surprise me that he said would die for Cas, because if nothing else, Cas saved his brother in so many ways.

It must have hurt Sam so much, having a faith that Dean didn't, when Cas was so clear about him being an abomination, even if he didn't completely hold it against him. And also knowing what he was doing with Ruby, even if he had convinced himself his intentions were good.

Well, raising him and seasons 4 and 5 where he was pretty much imprinting on him and learning how to be a person.

Cas and Dean have a history, not just an event. It started from a rescue of a soul and rebuilding of his body, but it played out over a number of episodes

I can see what you're saying, and I even agree that Castiel and Dean have a deeper friendship. I'm not trying to deny that. It just struck me that Sam's earlier history was being disregarded ("Cas and Dean have a history, not just an event") because by the time Castiel raised Sam from hell he'd known Sam for two years. They'd built up a friendship and a working relationship and Team Free Will. It's not as though they were strangers.

That's all. Not denying the Castiel/Dean profound bond.

I'd only really count S5 as Sam Cas time. S4, they were at loggerheads and united by nothing other than a care for Dean. Otherwise, they were essentially enemies. Some point early-mid S5 would have been the opportunity for them to start bonding. And even at that point, Cas was looking to Dean for the lead. In The Song Remains The Same when he called Sam a friend, a lot of fandom went "Whuh?" Some then went "Cool" and others went "Hussy! Tramp!" but there you go. Crazies. They hadn't shared much screen time or lines up until midway through that season, whereas we got to see Dean and Cas interact almost every week for a season and a half beforehand.

I don't think anyone was treating Sam like he didn't count, but he plain wasn't in the room for a lot of the Cas screentime for the preceding two seasons. It took a while before the team was formed.

I actually wish we'd had at least a little of Sam and Cas working together as a duo this year; it's the one element missing from the otherwise great team dynamic they've been showing the last couple of episodes.