There was no averting destiny, no matter what.

I just don't understand how you're getting to that point, Bev. Dean averted his destiny, didn't he? And Sam made a choice, for the good of the world. Maybe it feels like destiny because he did what "they" wanted, but he actually didn't have to.

I guess I don't understand what you wanted to happen instead.

I'm surprised you're tuning in on Friday.

MJMV.

MJMV.

?

My apprehension of the show differs from the accepted norm. My journey may vary.

It's entirely possible lately I'm taking fiction more seriously than it merits.

I don't think I could feel betrayed by a piece of fiction, but I imagine if I did, I would abandon it.

SPN Xover commentfic. Not many fills, but the SG1/SPN one? Sam/Sam? Gorgeous. Though I would have more likely paired him with Daniel, I think, and Dean with Sam, except for the confusing thing.

Michael did say that Free Will was an illusion, that the millions of choices and random events that led to John and Mary meeting (yes,I watched that episode last night) always were going to lead to the same ending.

I'm pretty much with Bev on loving the characters but suspecting Kripke may be an idiot. I draw the idiot conclusion from him talking. Maybe its just immaturity or something, I dunno, but he grates. I can't cognitively put him together with the characters that I love.

I haven't trusted him with those characters for a couple years now, but still I watched. I'm not sorry he is leaving. However, it sounds like he still has the same level of creative input according to Sera interviews.

The angels (sans Cas) had a very clear agenda that involved the boys having no choice. I figured it was clear the whole point of the story was that they were wrong.

There was a pattern that needed to be played out...and Sam and Dean didn't, so they won. The world lives.

I don't see the "everybody dies" end as a betrayal. Cause everybody dies saving the world. And they did have another choice - being meatsuits, and letting the world end. God is a dick for making those the only choices (unless he is not omnipotent). But sending Lucifer and Michael into the pit and sealing it so they could not get out, even if it meant going to hell was triumph as well as tragedy. If the series had ended that way, the tragedy would have been earned. And Sam and Dean were willing to go to hell to accomplish that. It was in character for them to be willing to go to hell. And Bobby was willing to die and go to hell for the same cause. And Castiel was willing to be destroyed for that. So if we did not have the new season, that would have been (to me) a satisfying ending.

To some extent maybe it is my family history, but I take it for granted that much of the time in the real world the good guys die too young, poor, and in great pain. If you can accomplish something to make the world a better place before it happens, really that is a triumph.

I'll always think that the whole point of the story is "the epic love story of Sam and Dean." In the Sera way,not the wincesty way.

...and Sam and Dean didn't, so they won.

But the possibility was already put out there that maybe that was the plan all along. They showed rebellion in the right places. It was implied that God was rooting for them to throw a kink into the plan, because Chuck was helping them out with inside information.

Maybe its just immaturity or something, I dunno, but he grates.

I go on the theory that Kripke is a massive comics/RPG gaming fanboy who, like many guys of that type, hasn't really spent a lot of time thinking through the larger implications and connections of what they've created other than "Dude, I've got an AWESOME idea for a campaign!"

In other words, Kripke is a regional LARP storyteller writ large. My theory is reinforced by the Supernatural convention episode, trust me.