Don't take me wrong: I think Dean is awesome, but John isn't nearly as conscious of his manhood as Dean is, which is in many ways more attractive

This is very well put, and I agree. I was trying to read bonny's mind. Dean is very attractive, but give him about 10 more years, and the sexy might make my brain explode.

EDIT: And yay! I have a bitch!!

Are we daisy-chaining? This make me Cindy's? I'm good with that.

It really sounded like John to me, too. At least a John who hadn't bunkered down the last twenty years.

The man's man who interests me accepts and expects a woman to take care of herself--and him, if he needs it. And likewise to accept a hand if she needs it. A partner, with her own skills that hopefully mesh with his to make them a more effective unit. No crybabying, not from either of them. Each of them pulling their own weight, and more at times, when necessary. Adults, I guess is what I'm saying. Of course a man's man deserves, and most of the time wants, a woman who knows who she is and isn't afraid to be herself, without all the girly games. And John would seem to fit that description.

Dean's getting there, but he's not there yet. Sam still wants to be the SNAG white knight, I think. ETA: Or still thinks that's what he needs to be. Underneath the cultured SNAGiness, he's probably a man's man with a heavy dominant streak, coupled with that impulse to white knightery. Sam would want a pretty princess, but one who knew how to use a variety of weapons as well as enjoy bubble baths and pedicures.

Sensitive New Age Guy. The kind who will brew you tea to help with your menses. And who will use that word. And who will expect accolade upon accolade (and possible fellatio, though he'd never ask you, he'd just hint) for the simple act of brewing the tea.

Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Sam still wants to be the SNAG white knight, I think

I dunno. Banging Ruby doesn't sound like something a SNAG would do. First and second season Sam, sure. Now? He's been down too many dark roads. He needs an Ellen his own age. (NOT Jo.)

I'll take Dean, if no one else does. I can at least use him for a sex toy on the side. Or a friend with benefits. I've always found that the manly men are thin on the ground. Better to take what you can get, just be aware of the disclaimers and never, never take it serious.

Just because...we hear the phrase "man's man" all the time.

Is there such a thing as a "woman's woman?" Or are the ideas that go into that too wildly divergent? I thought of this when Bev wrote Sam would want a pretty princess, but one who knew how to use a variety of weapons as well as enjoy bubble baths and pedicures.

A man's man is a fairly simple topic, yes? But a woman's woman...can there really be agreement? To keep it (slightly) on topic, are there any "women's women" in the SPN verse?

Ellen. Pamela.

Tamara wasn't, for all she and her hubby were a team--they had large, big holes that weren't covered in that partnership, and a good team doesn't.

Sarah was on her way to it, I think. With a little work, she'd make it. Under the fashion and the makeup there was a good strong sense of self, a competence, and an adaptability a woman's woman has to have.

Okay. It's a term I think Consuela, or possibly Nutty, coined: competence kink. I think in order to be classified as a man's man or a woman's woman, an individual has to be competent. With some things it takes practice, but the attitude, the belief in one's ability--that's adult.

::is Bev's bitch::

competence kink. I think in order to be classified as a man's man or a woman's woman, an individual has to be competent. With some things it takes practice, but the attitude, the belief in one's ability--that's adult.

Oooh. I love that term. And it's completely true.

I dunno. Banging Ruby doesn't sound like something a SNAG would do.

Against his will, (Papa!) Against his will (Sorry, uncontainable G&Sism there). Banging Ruby was not only something he felt was wrong on moral grounds because of the possession, it was also wrong to take comfort when Dean had no comfort or hope of it. But it also went against Sam's image of who he was. He clings to the persona he crafted at Sanford, has hoped on several levels to be able to reclaim that persona, believing it who he should be, and who he wants to be.

First and second season Sam, sure. Now? He's been down too many dark roads.

Exactly. But he's still struggling to balance parts of himself that retain that need for normal against the later-acquired toughness and disregard for niceties. The impatience with things not focused on his goal: getting Dean back, keeping himself human, controlling the elements of himself that threaten to swamp his humanity, compassion, and personality. He looks at his former self with some belief that's who he *should* be, even while he's letting go of the possibility of ever being that soft and accomodating again.

Truth is, I think because of Sam's personality and the way John and Dean raised him, there was always a wide and deep streak of implacable in Sam. A narrow-eyed, single-hearted focus that neither John nor Dean came by naturally. Even if his life had worked out with Jess and law school, Sam would have been an SOB in court, ruthless and quick to use every weapon in his arsenal to win. Arguing with Jess and angry enough? He'd have brought that steely resolve into it, and he'd have fought dirty. He may, and probably would, have been genuinely contrite and done the pretty to apologize, partly because he really didn't want to hurt those he loved, and partly because the person who did that wasn't part of his self-image.

I think a lot of the social niceties Sam practiced were a self-delusion to cover up the ruthless bastard he can be when he's on point.

John had to acquire his hard-assery, as has Dean, and Dean's still working on it. Beneath the tough guy we all know Dean's a marshmallow. Beneath the SNAG, we all know Sam's a straight razor.

He needs an Ellen his own age. (NOT Jo.)

I don't know. I think he needs someone who won't be bulldozed, but honestly? He's not, and I doubt he ever will be a real man's man. He needs a woman who can manage him, and that takes wiles a woman's woman wouldn't use.

What? Yes, I have given Sam's character, and it's development, some thought.

::is all ya'll's bitch::

The guy described above--the man's man? John or Dean, I'm not picky, that's all I want. I'm thinking either could do that Sam move about lifting up on the lap with one hand. I'll be in my bunk.