Bonny, I like the list. The only thing that required a re-read was the kid part. Maybe a way to make it a little clearer? It might also be 4 hours of sleep and still a bit gronkified, so I ask others if it took a couple "huh's". I knew what you were saying, but at first it looked out of kilter.

Stepped away for a client. Hang on, this will be a long one:

Great list bonny. You would have better wording, but I would add the ability to strongly disagree with civility and respect.

Good one. I need to think about the language, but basically, “Can fight fair and see conflict as a constructive tool.”

That's an excellent list, bonny. I've saved it and will print it out for Emmett in five years.

I would be honored. And I’m really proud of that kind of parenting!

It seems that a lot of things kids hear about what their parents want from the kids’ relationships fall under the categories of 1) Don’t make me uncomfortable and 2) Follow convention (whether social or familial) so that you…see 1)

Of course, most parental advice is firmly planted in wanting to keep the child safe, but it hinges on exactly WHAT is being protected.

Interesting that you think "embracing their dark side" is a prerequisite for a relationship. How did you come to that conclusion?

The short answer is that is saves a lot of time and trouble. The longer story involves authenticity and how recognizing and accepting who you really are makes for a more fulfilling relationship and, by extension, a more fulfilled life. Rather than battling our ‘demons’, if we can learn to integrate them by eliminating tolerations, changing what makes sense to change and managing what can’t, then we can spend our time on more important stuff.

For example, I have mentioned here before a couple a know who are both unrepentant brats. They love their comfort and demand a high level of ‘pampering’ in a way that other folks might see as selfish or childish or simply unachievable. Because they each understand and embrace that about themselves their union will last forever. There is no judgment. There is only strategy.

Does that make sense?

I also think that Laura's point would be a useful addition. It's a key component of what a marriage researcher pointed out on TAL - that the main measurable factor in whether a relationship will survive or not is simply the level of contempt present in discussions. You'd think it would be the obverse - respect. But people don't need signs of respect as much as they need no signs of contempt. At least according to the studies that were cited in the piece.

Malcolm Gladwell used this concept in “Blink”. And I’ve certainly seen it in my practice. Where contempt and derision exist, there is no fertile ground. Nothing grows but the contempt and derision. Now, some of the chaos/drama lovers among us (the gen pop…not us us) thrive on that behavior. If that floats yer boat, I say go for it…but…and this speaks to the dark side issue…KNOW that it is a choice that you are making and make peace with that. In other words, if you love misery, then do yourself a favor and enjoy it!

I have worked with one couple who were able to make that leap and are going strong. The awareness didn’t make them nicer at all, it just made them a stronger team in their disrespect. Sort of like ‘the devil you know.’

I see that as admitting that they could do bad things and not be insisting that they're always happy-perky people.

This too. I’m ever so clear about my emotional state all the time. You never, ever have to guess where you stand with me. Which means, when I’m pissed, I’ll let you know that…and I’ll take responsibility for my response as being my own.

For example, there are certain behaviors that just shake my tree. That does not make you a bad person for exhibiting them (unless we are talking about my very short list of deal breakers), it makes me a person who is responsible for feeling the way I do about them. This way, we both get to make an educated decision about how to deal or not deal with it.

Not every problem can be solved. But every problem can be understood and/or recognized for what it is.

Rather than battling our ‘demons’, if we can learn to integrate them by eliminating tolerations, changing what makes sense to change and managing what can’t, then we can spend our time on more important stuff.

I had a tagline from a play my sister was in: "Embrace your demons; some of them may be deities in disguise." It speaks very clearly to how I try to live my life.

Where contempt and derision exist, there is no fertile ground. Nothing grows but the contempt and derision. Now, some of the chaos/drama lovers among us (the gen pop…not us us) thrive on that behavior.

Arrrrrgh! Bonny, I don't WANT more personal growth!!!!!

Okay, that reaction is actually NOT a gripe towards bonny -- I read what you said [the part I quoted] and realized that I have MASSIVE contempt for my 2 bosses, who I find very difficult to deal with. And the result is misery for me.

I *totally* didn't link that to my old, ingrown need for drama.

Me = don't want drama, emphatically so. Therefore, I need to try to change the contempt for bosses to something different.

Dang it. More work.

(In all seriousness, thank you for pointing that out. Because I don't want the drama. And if it's coming in any way from *my* attitude toward them, I want to stop it at the source.)

There is no judgment. There is only strategy.

Ah. So that explains one man's wife who exercised no judgment and spent the $30,000 he earned over the summer in Alaska and his only strategy of not thinking about it so he didn't kill her.

omnis, you are absolutely right. That wording doesn't work. I have to reread my own self and I wrote it! Back to the drawing board.

Steph, bless you bless you bless you for the work you have done and the clarity you possess.

Knowing where stuff comes from is useful to a degree, but deciding what you will do with it is the key. Sometimes that means having to mourn the loss of it.

God knows I love me some recreational drama. Just like the report I made last night about the drunk woman on the street and the other players in that scenario. I was up WAY late doing battle with them in my head. Judging people for being judgmental. That is a chink my armor. Fortunately, I have so few opportunities to induldge in it anymore that it can just be fun. Aaaand, then I move on.

It makes sense to miss something that 'worked' so well for so long.

There is no judgment. There is only strategy.

Ah. So that explains one man's wife who exercised no judgment and spent the $30,000 he earned over the summer in Alaska and his only strategy of not thinking about it so he didn't kill her.

I thought that "judgment" in bonny's statement meant judgment of each others' dark sides, not "the ability to reason like a responsible adult and act within the world upon the results of said reasoning."

Me = don't want drama, emphatically so. Therefore, I need to try to change the contempt for bosses to something different.

Bingo.

And seriously, I completely relate to the 'I don't wanna' impulse when viewing the personal growth continuum.

My success in this area is firmly planted in my spiritual belief that when my work here is done, I'll either get a brief vacation is cerebral Hawaii, or the Great Cosmic Bus will come right 'round the corner for me.

Plus, I've stopped using the word 'work' and the phrase 'work is hard' simply because believing that made everything seem onerous. May not be realistic, but it fits with the color of the sky in my world.

Now, I chalk up the wins more than I deplore the loses.

I thought that "judgment" in bonny's statement meant judgment of each others' dark sides, not "the ability to reason like a responsible adult and act within the world upon the results of said reasoning."

Absolutely this.

Who could condone something like that? I'm not about excusing bad behavior. Quite the opposite.

Like my current crusade to topple the cult of personality around home improvement contractors that allows them to get away with rubbish behavior...long story, never mind.

But sometimes, the only thing available is to understand something (whether that is based on fact or a choice you make) and move on.

Steph you made a really good point about who suffers from your feelings about your old bosses. Wouldn't it be great if God really did smite people on our behalf? Then again, we've seen how that ideology doesn't work.

Who said, "Resentment is like drinking poison and then waiting for [your bosses] to die." ?

It makes sense to resent...especially since most of the time we are RIGHT, but it doesn't help us to be happier people.

Who said, "Resentment is like drinking poison and then waiting for [your bosses] to die." ?

I first heard it from Anne Lamott, but I believe that she got it from someone else; I just can't remember who.

Wouldn't it be great if God really did smite people on our behalf?

Yes! Woo hoo!!!

Then again, we've seen how that ideology doesn't work.

...oh, that. Right. Dang.

It makes sense to resent...especially since most of the time we are RIGHT, but it doesn't help us to be happier people.

If I could let go of the need to be acknowledged for being RIGHT (which may well be my downfall one day if I can't let it go), I wouldn't be chock full of resentment.

I just can't be content with the secret knowledge that I'm right; I need *everyone* to know it AND acknowledge it. Which makes me like some character in a Greek drama.