Given that, (Yes, electoral college and '00 was a massive mess in Florida and other real issues) the choice is in the hands of the voters, I would blame *us* for President McCain. But, in full disclosure, I blame this country* for Bush already.

*eta: the majority of voters who actually voted, specific-cakes.

don't you think it's a bit...overzealous to say that he had no right to embark upon a set of actions that might have resulted in it?

No moral right. I'm not denying his legal right. Are you saying running for President without disclosure was not in fact morally wrong in those circumstances? It seems we are getting awfully puritanical about hyperbole thse days. I remember Hec telling a Nader supporter "to hell you go" (in a good humored fashion) without anyone pouncing and calling him overzealous.

I misread your tone, TB. I apologise. And I still think he had every moral and legal right to be an idiot.

Eh. All in all, it makes me feel better about thinking this whole time that he's a sleaze. I never could stand him, and now I feel justified in that.

Generally, however, I don't feel like being a sleaze is reason enough to not vote for you--there have been times where if I agree with someone I will vote for the sleaze over the other guy. But I'd RATHER vote for a good person who I also agree with.

If he didn't use public money, his office, etc etc, coerce her, blah blah blah...then I don't give a shit. Consenting adults? That's him and his wife. I don't respect him, and I think he's a shit, especially since he bases his whole political reputation on being all Mister Nice Guy (unlike, some skeevy politicians like...um...Rudy Giuliani. Who if he got caught having another affair we'd all say "Um, duh?").

Stands in the ita corner, and also in the "she may have condoned it" corner, where I bet Dan Savage is standing.

To this day part of me thinks that Hillary Clinton condoned Bill's affairs.

In general, I think cheating is a private thing - I'm not interested.

Whether she condoned it or not, cheating while your wife has cancer is pretty low to me. Also low is cheating when, if found out, your public life guarantees that everyone who knows or ever meets your wife will know what happened.

Man, I've been sounding kind of harsh all day today. Sorry about that - I blame the fact that my house is full of screaming children and no other adults.

But if she explicitly condoned it, I wouldn't call it cheating.

At the very least, HillC implicitly condoned it -- no way she didn't know what Bill was up to. He's a PLAYER.

I'm more or less in Gar's corner here, though I might have chosen different words. When you're playing such a high stakes game with people's lives, going at it woth this waiting out there is pretty reprehensible.

I was trying to suss out whether I felt personally angry, since for once I actually gave a fair bit of momey to the campaign.

And I don't. Edwards' campaign, whatever else youi can say about it, did have the effect of putting some issues on the table that weren't there before. It pushed both Obama and Clinton to commit more strongly to more aggressive and detailed healthcare plans. He did some real good there.

But had he continued on and triumphed, we'd all be in a world of fucking hurt right now - an entirely foreseeable ouutcome from his perspective. That's pretty fucked.

Yeah, whether or not Elizabeth knew, I find it difficult to believe Hilllary didn't at least in general know (again, whether she specifically knew about Monica, or just knew in general...well. Though again, on the one hand, it's like "Dude, can't you manage to not embarrass us in front of the entire world?!?", but eight years is a long time. Not that he managed to make it eight years. But thinking that he could probably would've been overly optomistic on her part. Clearly.)