Jilli, I just saw the cutest black and white striped blazer at Tablots. The sleeves were way too long on me, even in petite, but you might like it.

Ooooh, time to go scour the website.

I have nothing really to add to the discussion about ethics, but it's been wonderful reading.

There is a tremendous nobility in that. I wonder, have we ever had that in 'normal' society, or is it only born in military or 'noble' stratas of life? By noble, I mean both the actual 'high borns' of olde who were obliged by birth to look after others, and helping professions.

I don't think there are many that would define "soldier" as helping profession out of the box, but they are certainly volunteering to risk themselves to keep other people out of harm's way--is that the nobility you refer to? Because I couldn't call them all noble, just as I don't see any reason to assume that people not to the manor born nor in a care profession wouldn't put themselves in jeopardy for someone else. I mean, I don't see the causality.

I have much more respect for someone who says "I fucked up,"

Just last week, a fellow at the genius bar at the Apple store told a friend of mine that they would replace her hard drive for free simply because she told the truth about dropping the laptop. "You wouldn't believe the things people say."

I have much more respect for someone who says "I fucked up,"

nods

Yes. Don't give me reasons and justifications, just admit your mistakes and then show me by your actions that you will try to avoid similar ones in the future.

I mean, I don't see the causality.

Right. I don't see a causality, or even a prevalence of nobility in any particular strata. Poor sentence structure on my part seemed to imply a connection between military and helping professions. I meant that more as a grasping list vs a connection.

eta: I should say, my real question is, "Have humans ever actually been noble/moral as a whole?" Or, have heroic behaviors, moral etc. only been anomalous or outside the interest of 'normal' people?

I have much more respect for someone who says "I fucked up,"

I keep trying to tell my son this (with more age appropriate language). Unfortunately CJ has a big issue with not telling the truth, to the point where I am never quite sure if I should belive him or not, which kills me. I keep trying to tell him he will get in 10 times more trouble for telling a lie than whatever the original issue was. As a parent, I keep wondering what I did wrong that I have a kid I struggle to trust.

re: cheating--I think some people get too attached to a sort of collaborative approach to work and figure "Well, he'd have helped if I asked, so why bother asking?" Some people simply have no grasp of doing the work yourself and letting it stand on its own merits, when they can get help. Plus, if you're too good at something, no one will believe you didn't have help, so there are few intrinsic rewards for not cheating. Self-satisfaction only goes so far.

Suzi, don't give up or beat yourself up over this. Every kid has to learn this at their own pace. My daughter finally twigged about 12, my nephew only twigged within the last few years and he's 24. Just be consistent, which is what it sounds like your doing.

And speaking of ethics and Rove . . .

[link]

House votes to cite Rove for contempt

Suzi, I don't know how old your son is, but can you explain to CJ that his lying creates a new situation, one in which you can't trust his words, and that he should want to have a parent who trusts and believes him when he says a thing? Maybe point out that he'll have an easier time as a teenager if you generally trust him than if you generally don't? He's old enough to have an interest in what happens when he's a teen, isn't he?