well, snce starting this job,, joe's standard in general, has been "is this person qualified to lead my daughter in combat someday" (if Ellie were to grow up to be a soldier someday). From that perspective, I think ethics are crucial because I think it represents the best possibility for her to come home in one piece.

I'm taking a huge shortcut there but the iPhone makes it hard to write long posts.

also, what ita said

Huge shortcut or not, I think you nailed it, Stephanie.

"Boing" or "boink"?

If other people doesn't matter, neither does their destruction, and how negative are the after-effects then?

Historically speaking, I'd say the more prevalent this attitude is among those in power, the more negative the effects are. Including for those in power who think themselves immune.

I am very much a believer in "Rules are for the guidance of the wise, and the blind obedience of fools". I see no wisdom in cheating.

I believe that small flaws often grow into something much bigger. IOW, if a ROTC cadet thinks cheating is no big deal, I tremble to think what he'll believe is OK by the time he's a colonel or a general.

Huh. Morality has been on my mind a lot lately in connection with my faux-son...a good friend's boy, for whom I have been an influence.

I've undertaken this role for one other young man and, after 20 years, he still looks to me for advice and support. It's an honor that I take very seriously.

Sadly, for the first time, I'm considering abdicating that role with the current faux-son...which makes me feel terrible. Would I write him off if he were actual kin? I sincerely don't know.

The issue is integrity and the lack there of. The kid lies. A lot. About everything. I know that he knows better. It's just easier and, in some cases, more fun.

I've talked to him about my own struggles with truth telling when I was younger and the work it took to turn that around and live a life of integrity.

I believe he understands and simply doesn't give a toss except when fake contrition will get him out of something. I'm out of things to say and now just feel sour and rejecty. That can't possibly help him but I honestly don't know what else to do.

I used to think that manipulative, dishonest behavior would come back around to bite you in the ass...It certainly seemed to do so for me! But, you know? Maybe it won't. Maybe this kid will Carl Rove his way through life and be perfectly fine.

Makes me feel a bit powerless and sad.

First, please do not put me in the position of *defending* the claim the ethics don't matter, they do. Moreover, because I don't really share the mindset, I don't think I can present a fully articulated argument for why ethics don't matter. But I can present some of the evidence that is seen to support that argument.

First is Sean's point that ethics are sometimes seen as an impediment to success or wealth or whatever. The Kantian concept that ethics are disinterested can be hard for some to see. For some, a choice that is legal but unethical is completely defensible.

I have read some papers in which students approach ethical dilemmas more as PR challenges than anything else: ethics as spin. And there's lots of evidence to support this version of ethics. A rather egregious example that occurs to me is McClellan saying that while the Bush has been manipulative and deliberately deceptive, he hasn't lied (because presumably the last would be unethical and the former two somehow aren't).

Oh, and there's bonny's point above. If lying again and again gets you what you want? The choice to stop lying might well seem to be the sucker bet.