He also took me to a bar once, at age 12 or 13,

I was pretty much raised in pubs, I think.

12 is when The Howling Dog (farthest North roadhouse, made of awesome) said I couldn't come in anymore to watch my mom and uncle play volleyball. Younger than that was fine, though.

Definitely no playgrounds, which would have ROCKED.

It DID rock. I'd make new friends all the time, as kids do.

I can totally see how the bar culture in the States is different. Maybe if ours was more like that, there'd be fewer problems with binge drinking.

When we were in elementary school and getting the "alcohol is dangerous, kids!" lessons, there was one time that we went out for pizza, and my dad had a beer with his pizza, and my sister and I both insisted that Dad had had alcohol, and thus it wasn't safe for him to drive, and we weren't going to get into a car with someone who'd been drinking. Our parents apparently decided against trying to explain the nuances of blood alcohol levels to 7- and 10-year-olds, and my mom drove home.

After the "smoking kills" lesson, I know of at least two kids who went home and found and threw away all their parents' cigarettes.

However, they were more neighborhood gathering places that happened to serve alcohol.

Yeah, I should have clarified -- Dad took me to what was billed (on its sign and door) as a "nightclub." (It was the mid-1980s.) NSM a neighborhood gathering place, except for people looking to get laid.

That's why I mentioned that, Steph -- completely different vibes. Though my parents stopped taking us when I was about 10 or 12. Bar-with-restaurant was okay for meals even after that.

I both insisted that Dad had had alcohol, and thus it wasn't safe for him to drive, and we weren't going to get into a car with someone who'd been drinking.

Um, I still kind of do that. Also, I refuse to be in a room with my mother when she's smoking. Intolerant? Moi?

"nightclub."

Heh. Oh Lord. He probably thought looking like a loving father would help him pull, like guys who bring their friends' babies out for walks in the park.

I think that it's probably ok/non-pervy for those kids' dad to help when they are that young. And I have had to ask my dad or stepdad for help like that as an adult, too.People get SO horrified. "Weren't you thinking he could...you know?' Well, I didn't always get along with Stepdad, but I could tell he wasn't a pervert. I don't know. I just knew that. It was still hard to ask him, but I was desperate.

My mom has always been really comfortable with being naked around me. It was probably good for me; my image of a "normal" woman was established early on, though the media warped it in the years that followed. I don't think I've ever seen my dad naked (thanks goodness), but I do remember at some point my mom telling me to PUT SOME CLOTHES ON because I was embarrassing my dad by running around naked. Not sure how old I was, but oops.

On the other hand, back in the late 50s/early 60s, my grandparents lived on a farm out in the country. COUNTRY. Isolated and shit. Horses, cows, a mean turkey named Condor.

Anyway. My mom, starting around age 10 or so, would ride her horse up to Kate's Bar and get beer to go for my granddad. Generally 40-ouncers. As many as she could fit in the saddlebags. And Kate (or whoever was working) knew that it was for my granddad (rather than my mom trying to pull a fast one and get beer for herself), seeing as how he was their best customer, whether he was getting drunk there or just getting carryout delivered by his daughters on horseback.

erin - wrt the certified letter, in my non-lawyerly view, that's a good indication that the administration may already be catching a certain amount of shit for this move.

... and so they feel the need to compound the shittiness. Do you have a teachers' union?