I don't think it was portrayed as either shiny or happy. I mean, when it's made apparent, it's a sad moment. It's the preferable choice, but I still found it sad.

Exactly, which is why I didn't like it. I didn't think it was shiny or happy either; I'm saying, I wanted something shiny and happy. Sucked for me, but... was what it was.

Oh, der. You were responding to Liese. I just wanted to be clear that I found no shiny or happy there.

I guess that's the thing, though, right? That there was a choice to be made and in the end suicide was the best choice. Suicide was what was necessary to be happy, or at least to avoid a worse sadness. That's not a show that I could have enjoyed given that it ended that way.

Which is a shame to me because from everything else I heard about it I would have otherwise really really loved it. But that's just where my headspace was at the time it was airing.

Totally get that. It's like I have this "Wait, Ben and Glory are related?" glamour about the end... it's in place most of the time.

It really was a fantastic show.

I think there's a distinction between happy and less sad, and I think the show was quite clear about him avoiding a deep unhappiness. (eta: to Liese, and not to disagree with you, Jen)

This is a fascinating conversation. I haven't seen more than a few episodes of either version of the show, but the debate reminds me of when Terry Gilliam said he thought BRAZIL had a happy ending because Sam did get away in the end, even if it was only in his own head.

Also, the REAPER premiere? Sock is just making me want to quit this show. Given how far they've come along with Morgan from CHUCK, I'd just like a little modulation here. Ray Wise is still awesome, however.

I think you can read LoM that way, Frank, but I don't think the show tries to convince you of that, which is the big distinction fo rme.

I guess that's the rub, though, because in real life people often enough feel that there's no way out of a deep unhappiness except for suicide. And that's a lie that steals a lot of lives.

In real life suicide doesn't mean another life somewhere else where you might one day achieve another kind of happiness. It's just a tragedy that may have been avoidable.

So for him to have chosen to remain in the 70s with it narratively being an actual sacrifice of his life instead of a metaphorical one somehow (Jen's mythical happy ending) means that I could not have been narratively satisfied with the story. It would have been problematic. For me. Just for me. I can see where people can react differently and be sad and yet narratively satisfied. But it wouldn't have worked that way for me.