a good woman's love can change a man

Can restore a man, but that's most every fairy tale ever. Someone's changed into something (or wants to change) and then love, and then change. They're dead, they're sleeping, they're a servant, they're a mermaid, romance, changed into a form that can be happily ever after.

There you go.

If the point is that he's really the same guy all the time, what's important about the change? If he's gentle and nice to her the entire time, what is her love accomplishing? Sending us the message that we can make our men look better? Is this why we are supposed to pick our men's clothes?

Yeap. The lighting is so dark that I can't really make it out, but it looks like they mostly paste a scar across one of his perfect cheekbones and call it a day.

Well, apparently, when he gets upset, he gets ugly. But, when he's calm. He's pretty with a scar. SO. FLAWED.

I thought a point of BATB was that the man did change. He was a bit of a jerk before the curse and over time changed his ways.

Am I wrong?

He's equally kind and gentle to her, but before his restoration he can't be part of society - her love makes that possible. And, yeah, that's totally common, but I think that's part of Vonnie's point, it's a common theme and Beauty and the Beast is one example of a story that encompasses, among other themes, that one.

I think the issue is that the trope, to me, is "beauty is more than skin deep" and to you it's "you can love the bad out of him" or "you should love him because he's bad"

Well, of course there is the first aspect. I'm a bit boggled that the second aspect is not apparent to everybody (I guess it's possible that I'm reaching/overthinking, but I can't be the only one.) For all her brave sacrifice, Beauty is there under duress. She wouldn't be there if the alternative did not mean her father's death. Beast is her jailer and if you want to be facetious, she basically develops Stockholm Syndrome. I don't think you can think of Beast as being honest and decent from the beginning, just because he doesn't hack her to pieces and gobble her up. Of course he changes through the story -- he keeps her confined to the castle at the beginning, then he lets her go at the end because his heart is transformed through her influence.

Vonnie, you're not completely alone... I'm trying to dredge up memories of the folklore classes and women's studies from lo, these many years ago. Unfortunately I think you're far more eloquent than I'm capable of being tonight. I've always loved the fairy tales, and yes, I loved the Disney version of B&tB, even went to see it on Broadway because I enjoy the music. But yes, it has some dark and nasty underpinnings. People (people in general, not the people on this board) always forget that the Disney storytellers used a sanitized version of the stories (for instance, at the end of Cinderella, in the Disney movie you didn't see birds pecking out the eyes of the stepsisters).

(for instance, at the end of Cinderella, in the Disney movie you didn't see birds pecking out the eyes of the stepsisters)

Or them cutting off their heels to try and fit into the shoe.

One of the things about the beauty and the beast tale is that she does have agency (or as much as she can as captive) -- she loves him, he is then transformed. Her actions create a cchange in the world.

And not a lot of other fairy tales do that. Cinderella is always being rescued, and Sleeping Beauty is cursed and then comatose. Snow White, also comatose. And in all three of those cases, our "heroines" are loathed and victimized by oother women who envy their beauty and goodness.

And not a lot of other fairy tales do that. Cinderella is always being rescued, and Sleeping Beauty is cursed and then comatose. Snow White, also comatose. And in all three of those cases, our "heroines" are loathed and victimized by oother women who envy their beauty and goodness.

I know -- when I started buying books for various nephews and nieces I found myself standing in the store and reading everything to make sure the female characters were represented in a way I approved. Doing my little bit to spread female empowerment among the next generation.

Beast is her jailer and if you want to be facetious, she basically develops Stockholm Syndrome.

Not to take it back to Disney, but this is really made clear in the song they added for the stage show.

Of course, reading the summary of the original, it reads like a morality play on the evils of friendzoning.

I agree that it's one of the better fairy tales from a feminist perspective, but that's a really fucking low bar.