The thing for me is (and I know I'm not a conventional believer) that the belief I hold is ridic. There's just no way around it. It's not a reasonable thing to believe. I choose to believe despite its ridiculousness.

Liese, I adore you. Just so you know.

I've read some of Madeleine L'Engle's non-fiction stuff that says much the same thing. There's nothing rational about believing that God chose to limit his/her/its incomprehensibly infinite power by becoming human, and THEN decided to die for humanity despite the fact that humans do incomprehensibly deplorable shit every minute of every day, and THEN rose from the dead to prove that yeah, no fooling, you can have this eternal life, too.

It's completely bugfuck crazy if you look too closely at just the surface facts.

The way one of my agnostic friends phrased it is that if Christians really believed what we claim to believe; if we actually believed in damnation, then we would be desperate, panicky, to make sure our friends and family didn't suffer. But we're not, so (from his perspective) either it's not true or we don't care.

I'll say this about my ex-Freak Ass church -- they really really REALLY believed in the damnation of non-believers, and they were, in fact, panicky to make sure that family and friends didn't suffer. Very sincerely. People would be upset to the point of tears to think that their mom/uncle/best friend/whoever would spend eternity in a bad, flamey state of being.

That level of concern is, at least, consistent with their beliefs; they just did culty stuff because of it.

t edit I wish Cindy were here for this conversation.

I guess that's the problem with "tolerance" becoming such a catchword. What does tolerant mean? Does it mean, just living alongside? Or actively thinking, "that's okay" about whatever?

But if they're going to keep insisting on telling me stupid shit about astral projection

Tom Cruise is your neighbor?

My problem with the Secret and a number of religious people I know is that implication that if I was more positive or prayed more or led a better life, I could have avoided the ills in my life.

This caused a huge issue for my step-dad and his family. They are decended from this lady [link] and as far as I know, G is the only one who left.

Liese, I adore you. Just so you know.

Right backatcha, woman.

And Allyson, asking those questions is totally not being a jerk. Pursuing belief and digging through those questions is vital to growth.

Although I know probably what you're saying is lots of people believe in surface ways that haven't been thought through at all, and your probing can contribute to bringing down the house of cards. But IMO, that's important, too.

I rejected my faith completely for a while. Specifically because I felt it wasn't a genuinely held belief, just a default, and that if I were ever to believe it for reals, I would have to destroy it first.

Or actively thinking, "that's okay" about whatever?

And if it's not just thinking this, if it's thinking what you want in your cold dark judgmental heart, but acting as if everything were just whatever, then does that make you tolerant or just non-confrontational?

Oh, I approach it in a totally jerky way. I told one of my neighbors that if she could produce a study proving astral projection that was done/verified by an independent lab with real scientists I'd eat my own poop with a fork and knife.

She swore such studies existed and would provide them to me. I've been waiting for months.

The most devoutly Christian girl in class in high school told me once that she did believe I'd go to hell, but it was my choice, and she'd respect that and not interfere.

Which is all I want people to do, if they believe I'm eternally damned.

I guess that's the problem with "tolerance" becoming such a catchword. What does tolerant mean? Does it mean, just living alongside? Or actively thinking, "that's okay" about whatever?

I think of it as, "I may not necessarily approve of what you're doing. But I need a better reason than that to stop you from doing it. Or for that matter, even telling you that I disapprove."

It's kind of like like watching Hubs's brother and his wife raise their kids. If I had (human) kids, I'd probably bring them up very differently. But as long as nobody's likely to get hurt, I keep my mouth shut.

Right. Its not like everybody in Darfur is just whiny or all those folks shipped off to Auschwitz wouldn't have if they'd just said "I want to live free of Nazis" instead of "Don't let the Nazis slaughter me and everyone I know."

Seriously. Two words: Anne. Frank.