Oh, let me add: normally I frankly don't care quite as much about actresses and their appearance or even, really, their health. Not my business. I'm invested in Lea Michele way beyond the norm because of history - I saw Spring Awakening more than a dozen times on Broadway. It completely changed my life. I spent over a year building and moderating a major Spring Awakening fansite that I still own and administer. I respect Lea Michele for her talent and her commitment to that show, and I "knew" her (not personally, but as much as one can know a favorite actress) long before Glee catapulted her to national fame.

Sure you can comment, but I think you do so with the realization that when the comment is, "God, she looks too thin," or "Wow, he is so fat," or "Her skin looks horrible!" there are probably at least half a dozen buffistas who look at themselves and wonder what you'd say about them.

Isn't this unavoidable? There are all kinds of things people say here that I could find personally offensive. I thought this was a default position.

I think we try to avoid it.

Sure you can comment, but I think you do so with the realization that when the comment is, "God, she looks too thin," or "Wow, he is so fat," or "Her skin looks horrible!" there are probably at least half a dozen buffistas who look at themselves and wonder what you'd say about them.

That's fair. But to some extent, I feel like there's a celebrity factor to consider. If Ryan Reynolds were to let his six-pack go and have some pictures with a bit of a beer belly, I would consider it fair game to say "Wow, Ryan Reynold's doesn't look so good." If everybody on this board said it at the same time, I don't think I'd say "Well, crap, better get to the gym" just because I, too, have not six-pack. Not even a one-pack, actually.

So what are you saying? that there are certain topics off-limits? If so, what is it that we should and should not discuss.

I need to be clear because this was not my understanding of discussion here before.

I'm not sure I'd say off limits, but, speaking for myself, I think proscribing a certain image for women's bodies is unhealthy and unhelpful.

And, with that, I have to go run some terrible errands.

I'm uncomfortable with the discussion today. And I'm trying to think through what is making me uncomfortable. I think it is the twin issues of Gris' initial remark being taken so negatively, which took me aback. I think a comment perhaps was needed, but maybe a bow and arrow, not a nuclear warhead.

Second, I think that respectful dialogue needs to occur in a spot where people don't feel silenced. I am pretty sure that most of us commenting in this thread aren't interested in perpetuating sexism, but sexism has many different representations and to focus on one particular slice ("we cannot comment on women's bodies") may allow for some aspects of sexism not to be commented on at all.

there is power and privilege in feminist movements and a blanket statement of what is acceptable and what isn't, doesn't really fit the multiple perspectives of women's empowerment.

I hope you don't feel piled on, Gris.

I did. Feel piled on, that is.

I debated whether to even mention it, because, after all, when someone is as opinionated and mouthy as I am, eventually strong opposite opinions will be voiced.

But I'm noting it only because it's honestly the first time in my history here, including the ugly ugly kerfluffles in Bureaucracy, that I've felt piled on.

So I was probably overdue.

That said, I don't feel the need for or want apologies (if in fact anyone thought I deserve one), because we were just doing what Buffistas do -- talking about strongly held opinions, some of which differ.

I don't think anything's off-topic, and I guess I should make a distinction between Tep's stance and my own.

I'd have a problem with mean spirited comments about somebody's appearance done in a derisive fashion that depend on presumptions that can't be proved.

So, "Eat a sandwich, honey. And here's a brochure titled, 'So You Like to Throw Up'" or "Damn, she got fat and fugly after she broke up with hottie dude. She needs to put down Haagen Dazs." That kind of stuff I don't like.

But I do think it's fair game to comment on choices the actor makes about their appearance: "Charisma's hairdresser must've hated her in S3," "Damn, Nicole Kidman looks like she got her face off a mannequin after that botox." and even "Shit, I'm worried Christian Bale's going to damage his heart from the weight loss he did for The Machinist." Or, "I like Renee Zellwegger's figure better when she's doing the Bridget Jones movies. It just looks more lush."

Personally, I don't have a problem with anybody's stance on these issues in this discussion. So, I'm sorry it's been uncomfortable for anybody, or that anybody feels piled on. But for me, it's just an interesting topic and a variety of opinions on it are welcome.

I don't think there is a set stance or response to this issue, at all. Nor is there some sort of governing precedent. But it's worth discussing.