Spike's Bitches 37: You take the killing for granted.
[NAFDA] Spike-centric discussion. Lusty, lewd (only occasionally crude), risqué (and frisqué), bawdy (Oh, lawdy!), flirty ('cuz we're purty), raunchy talk inside. Caveat lector.
I get to explain to my students at some point each year what "agnostic" is (vs. atheist) -- most of my students are Catholic -- but each year, at least one kid shouts in relief, "So THAT'S what I am!"
Cracks me up every time.
Bwah! I have had this experience many times myself. One of the first vocabulary words they learn is "atheist" (I take all of my vocab from the literature we're studying, and Holden calls himself an atheist), and I always have to clarify the difference between being an atheist and being agnostic.
I am more than a little nervous--even here in my secular private school in liberal LA--that I will be teaching parts of the Bible as literature next month. But they need the basic stories to understand references in so much of the Western Canon that I can't take the safe road, so...
I will be calling Genesis a "creation story" rather than a "creation myth," however. May seem like an unimportant distinction, but it makes a difference with some parents.
Also, hivemind question. When I teach pieces of Genesis and the rest of the Old Testament/Bible/Torah, I need the students to understand that this text is found in both the Jewish and Christian Bibles. Is it safe just to call these "Bible passages" since (I believe?) Jews and Christians use that term, or should I be saying Torah or Old Testament at times? Any suggestions about the best way to approach this topic? Any specific times when it would be disrepectful *not* to call it the Torah?
Also, does anyone know where the Old Testmant/Torah talks about the mesiah? I need to pinpoint that in order to explain the break that happened when Jesus entered the picture. Also the fact that Jesus was a Jew. Also, didn't Islam have early roots in Judiasm/Christianity? How did that work?
My theology is a bit rusty, so please pardon stupid questions. I swear I knew this stuff at some point. And yes, I promise that I will be doing a lot of research to fill in the gaps of my memory before I teach any of this. I may actually get around to finishing Karen Armstrong's
A History of God,
but given its heft...? Probably not in time.
As a bit of church history by way of explaining why you have conservative and liberal Baptists, Presbyterians, etc., what tends to set the larger families of denominations apart is a combination of doctrine and church structure/governance, and the latter changes more slowly than the former. E.g. Baptists are congregationalists, with most decisions made town-meeting style at the local church level. Each congregation chooses its own pastor, and there isn't necessarily a denomination-wide standard of ordination. One of my childhood pastors had a high school education, and the current pastor at my mom's church has no formal theological training--his degree is in business and IIRC he's an insurance agent or somesuch who felt a call to preach and is hoping to be a full-time pastor someday. (The church has 20 members and can't yet afford a full-time pastor's salary.) This contrasts with Methodists, who are more top-down, and Presbyterians, who are somewhere in between. So, since doctrine is more malleable than whether you're governed by elders or bishops or by congregational vote, over time doctrinal schisms developed within the denominational families.
At least, that's an oversimplified explanation.
K, I'd stick to "Bible" and the particular book you're talking about, both for the sake of neutrality and for getting on to the "you should know these stories whatever you are" point -- "Torah" technically only refers to the first five books, and "Old Testament" can rub pretty seriously offensive to people who don't see it as superseded by the new one, nor a testament of Jesus at all.
"Torah" as a term is never disrespectful, but, as I said, it's only a part -- if you're talking about the Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, any of the David-era history stuff, the prophets, etc. etc., it's just not accurate.
I'm punting the messianic stuff, since I suspect some of the Christians in the thread know it way better than I do....
Islam views the Jewish and Christian bibles as prophetic works, and as sacred, and says that Mohammed's revelation is the final one. I recommend No God But God as a great (and readable, and not too long) overview of Islam that covers those connections well, and also puts a lot of contemporary matters into context.
even if you can't intellectually accept the possibility of God existing, your actions are showing that something in you is responding to that call to goodness.
Yes, this. I explain that my basic premise is that I know fuck-all about what may be actually true, and that I just am trying to leave the world a slightly better place than I entered it, in whatever ways I can.
Yes, yes, "better" is subjective, but y'all at least know what I'm saying.
And honestly, I feel that if I am wrong, and some deity booms at me in the afterlife "You didn't believe in ME! To hell you go!" I will reply "Fine. You're an asshole; bring on the pain. You big bully."
Kristin, I am talking "budget" tomorrow with my boss re: NCTE. We shall see.
I had an excellent Bible as Lit course. I know I still have the notes somewhere. I think I might refer to the OT specifically as the Old Testament; isn't only part of the OT refered to as the Pentateuch (first 5 books? BibleAsLit was, damn, 1995.) "Bible" seems to me a Xian term, and refer to OT and NT together. Torah is OT, isn't it?
And damn, what's the term for OT stories that are stories, not in the actual accepted Bible. Xiam term apopcryha; what's the Jewish term? Tip of tongue....
Susan, thanks for your phrasing "denominational family" -- that's actually a great way to wrap my head around it, since I've very often looked from the outside and said, "huh? But aren't you all Presbyterians???!!?"
Also, does anyone know where the Old Testmant/Torah talks about the mesiah?
From my perspective as a Christian, I'd say it's all over the place, though most heavily in the prophetic books and in Isaiah more than anywhere else. Isaiah 53 is probably the favorite messianic passage from a Christian POV, also Isaiah 9:2-7. But I'd also get a Jewish perspective on which are the most important messianic passages, because Christians are naturally going to glom onto anything that reminds us of Jesus.
Misradim! Right?!
Close - Midrashim (singular midrash). They aren't quite the same thing as apocrypha, though; rather than being books that weren't included, they're more like commentaries on the canonical books, with a good bit of added (and likely folkloric) material blended in.
Ha, I retained some knowledge. If a bit skewed.
Research show that OT can be considered perjortive to some Jews; Tanakh is almost the same as OT.
As a teacher, I'd lay the whole mess of names on the table, explain the various schools of thought. and say "Do you think we should use the term OT or Tanakh?"
After I checked my pronounciation. ta-KNOCK? ta-nOCH?
You all rock. Thank you.
I'd stick to "Bible" and the particular book you're talking about, both for the sake of neutrality and for getting on to the "you should know these stories whatever you are" point -- "Torah" technically only refers to the first five books..."Torah" as a term is never disrespectful, but, as I said, it's only a part -- if you're talking about the Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, any of the David-era history stuff, the prophets, etc. etc., it's just not accurate.
I'll stick to Bible. And how did I not know that the Torah is only the first five books? Ack. I feel like a moron.
Oh, and yes, I do know that it would be offensive to call the pre-Jesus text "The Old Testament" in general, but I also want them to know the term "Old Testament" since it is frequently used in literature.
So is there a separate name for the books after the first five but before what Christians call "The New Testament"? Would those books just be part of the Bible, from a Jewish perspective?
Islam views the Jewish and Christian bibles as prophetic works, and as sacred, and says that Mohammed's revelation is the final one. I recommend No God But God as a great (and readable, and not too long) overview of Islam that covers those connections well, and also puts a lot of contemporary matters into context.
Excellent, thank you.
Susan, thank you for the Isaiah references. I will definitely look for non-Christian perspectives as well (such is the power of the hivemind), though I know many Buffista Jews are celebrating Rosh Hashanah at the moment.
