I think I enjoyed the watch-and-post more than the ep itself. I mean, I enjoyed the ep, but I think I found the flailing and love and thinky thoughts more wonderful than the ep itself. Am I a bad fan?

Also, my bad on the Meadowsweet/Meadow Rue mix-up. I am a bad gardener. Thalictrum is not Filipendula. I was, uh, erm... drunk?

Although I find it a bit of a stretch that they'd kept Sammy in the dark for so long, but on the other hand it does feed into the fact that Sam's been attuned to the more normal life. Where Dean was indoctrinated by fire, literally, Sam was raised in the dark, living a half-life and not knowing why, thinking he's normal and yet knowing he's not and not knowing why. That would definitely separate him from the pack. In trying to protect him, they alienated him.

In trying to protect him, they alienated him.

Oh, that's some smart thinkiness right there, Juliebird. Yeah.

That's a really good point, Juliebird.

Kids grasp more than you think they will. Especially vibes. Sam would have understood, intuitively, for a long time that there were secrets and that they were a very different family in more ways than simply moving around a lot and living in shitbox motels.

Eight is possibly a little old to be completely in the dark, but at the same time he obviously had suspicions for long enough to poke around a little on his own, *and* work up the courage to broach the subject. Kids hate change, as a general rule. Asking means receiving an answer you might not want, so Sam might have been a little bit complicit in holding off yet more weirdness as long as he could.

I hated them making John miss Christmas, too, Consuela. It seemed unnecessarily cruel, and I like to believe John wouldn't have done that unless he was laid up in the hospital. But then Sam wouldn't have given Dean the amulet, so.

I really didn't care for the kid playing Wee!Dean, but then I also didn't mind that John missed Christmas. I mean, if he's on a hunt, he's on a hunt. The man's obsessed. I really don't expect his obsession to stop for a holiday he probably doesn't believe in anymore. He's sacrificed so many other family values, and perhaps even lost sight of what a family should be in the normal sense... Christmas is just another day. With the loss of Mary, I'm sure that all those occassions, all those holidays, became meaningless to him. That everything became The Hunt and keeping his kids alive. Holidays are moments, ceremonies, to mark an event, something special. But to John, these have now become meaningless trivialities. Possibily the only events he memorializes are his children's birthdays... if he knows what's good for him (I know he's dead now, but I'll kick his ass anyway)

I agree that John was obsessed, but I don't think he blatantly disregarded his boys' needs, either. Not the John who told Sam he had started a college fund and wanted Dean to have a home. I'm sure Christmas was never celebrated with all the trimmings, but I have a hard believing he would have written it off.

Home and college fund seem like forward/necessary/survivalist thinking. Holidays like Christmas strike me as luxuries. From this ep, it seems as if John had pegged Dean as his successor in case he failed in destroying Mary's killer, and Sam, in keeping him in the dark, his hope for an heir with a normal future.

And wanting Dean to have a home... I lack the immediate references. Refresh me, was this an "eventually" or an "I always wanted you to have one"? Because the former seems like a natural wish "I hope I kill the sons of bitches who killed your mother and then you can have a normal life" vs. "I tried to give you a normal life despite trying to catch the sons of bitches who killed your mother.". Or something else?

I'd have to look up which episode it was. End of S1 (obviously) but I don't remember which one. He was saying he wanted Dean to have a home after the demon was dead, that there *were* things he wanted them to have when the job was done, but my interpretation was that he knew full well he hadn't been able to provide those things during their childhood, too, and regretted it.

We just see it differently, is all. Which is fine!

I agree that John was obsessed, but I don't think he blatantly disregarded his boys' needs, either. Not the John who told Sam he had started a college fund and wanted Dean to have a home. I'm sure Christmas was never celebrated with all the trimmings, but I have a hard believing he would have written it off.

I don't have a hard time believing he'd have written it off at all. It doesn't seem contrary to the college fund (that he spent on ammo) or his regret that Dean had neither home nor any kind of shot at a normal life. I'd have been more shocked by him observing it, frankly.

The point about how Sam was alienated by them trying to shelter him is so true. The other thing I note (side note: while reviews are mixed on his acting, I'm VERY glad they got Ridge Canipe back to reprise his role as Young Dean, because visual continuity makes me a happy camper), was the way in which Dean explained Dad's Job to Sam. Dean, unlike Sam, remembers Dad Before, and part of what he's trying to preserve with the stolen Christmas is that part of Dad that they all lost when they lost Mary. He'd believe Dad would have been there if he could have, because he'd remember when those things mattered. But for Sam, that Dad is no more real than Santa. The monsters exist, the good things don't.

Err. I'm hopped up on sinus meds. Apologies for any lack of sense.

And wanting Dean to have a home... I lack the immediate references. Refresh me, was this an "eventually" or an "I always wanted you to have one"? Because the former seems like a natural wish "I hope I kill the sons of bitches who killed your mother and then you can have a normal life" vs. "I tried to give you a normal life despite trying to catch the sons of bitches who killed your mother.". Or something else?

It's from Salvation.

"I want to stop losing people we love. I want you to go to school. I want, I want Dean to have a home. I want Mary alive. I just... I just want this to be over."

Ah, thanks!

It seems that it might be concluded that these are recent wishes... Or maybe they have been the wishes of John from the get-go. I tend to think that they are more recent realizations in his life. Or long-suppresseed wishes that the end-in-sightness of his journey had let him see.