Also moving from Lightbulbs to here:

I've been reading and thinking and mulling over all of this since the escalation in GB&GR (which I didn't contribute to or weigh in on because it was already past and over by the time I got caught up, and it felt like doing so would be reigniting something sad and hurtful. It utterly breaks my heart that sj, Laura and KB all feel actively unsafe and unwelcome here.

I don't doubt anyone's kindness and good intentions and desire to put in the work of anti-racism/sexism/ableism/heterosexism/cis privilege and to avoid hurting one another; having come in late to the other thread, I came away with the same impression Dana had: that this year has left every one of us raw and prickly and covered with scars and bruises that are only just beginning to heal, and we're all painfully sensitive to even the lightest pressure.

I haven't been as deep in as many online communities as Atropa and Plei, but I've also seen bad outcomes for the community in spaces like the proposed thread. If any community can do it without adding to the stress and unhappiness and possibly departures, I totally believe it's this one, but I don't have 100% confidence that we can do it either.

I feel there needs to be a clear policy in place for what I and others are supposed to do in the future if something like this happens again

Absolutely this. As Willow says, a vague disclaimer is nobody's friend. And IM*limited*E the few communities where these discussions do seem to be able to happen have been the ones with clear expectations for what's allowed and not, and when someone violates those expectations a mod steps in to remind them of which specific bowl of guac they've blundered into and why it's there. It provides a clear border and a starting point for discussions and it makes people at least a tiny bit more thoughtful and intentional about their word choices, especially when they had to read the guidelines in full and affirm their intention to follow them before joining.

We're all very much long past read-the-rules-before-joining, but, yes, clear policies about language choices, intent vs. impact, and expected post-guac actions are an excellent idea.

We’ve had past instances where people deleted whole sections of comments.

We’ve had past instances where people deleted whole sections of comments.

Oh, I did that, because I didn't want TV Tr*pers descending upon me on TWoP, where I was earning my living.

When I said I felt they gaslit sj et al, I was not referecing the deletions. I'd forgotten about those. I meant that about the words they left up.

If any community can do it without adding to the stress and unhappiness and possibly departures, I totally believe it's this one, but I don't have 100% confidence that we can do it either.

I’m going to be very blunt: we will not be the exception to the usual in this. Because no matter how good our intentions, no matter how safe and welcoming we want this space to be, people can never be perfect, and no one will ever 100% agree on context and intent.

And I would LOVE to be proven wrong about my pessimistic view on that. But my pessimism is born from experience.

I am past the point in my life where I feel like I'm going to just smile and ignore something that I find hurtful, especially around people who I consider to be friends.

This is where I am at as well. The only path presented for me to be welcome would be to apologize when I absolutely do not feel I did anything wrong. The last thing I want to do is rehash, but I was attacked for saying 'calling Trump a baby was an insult to babies'. That was somehow horrible and insensitive. Then I hear that some people on some other platforms mock Trump's weight or incontinence or whatever. I didn't and haven't done that. I said he acted like a toddler. So now I am asked to apologize for something I just didn't do. Do I hurt when my friends are hurt? Of course I do. I never want to cause my loved ones pain. But yes, I am in pain too. I am asked to apologize for being insensitive, when frankly I feel it was insensitive to attack me. I don't have any interest or expectation for apology, but it was a hard slap of reality to find out that my pain didn't matter.

I've logged in and caught up on the threads, but my feeling hasn't changed. 2020 has been hard enough and this loss is a serious blow, but I can't stay when it hurts this much. I can't smile and ignore it.

Laura, I know you are going through some difficult things and I'm sorry for that. However, you were not attacked - you were gently told that your words hurt someone, regardless of your intent. At this point, it's your hurt feelings versus sj's right to speak up when a comment, however unintended, is harmful to her lived experiences as a disabled person. No one has said, nor does anyone think, you are a bad person. Whether you see it or not, you made a simple mistake. It happens. We all do it because we're all learning constantly. I will always believe the person in the marginalized group when they say something is harmful. And since the original comments are gone, we can't have a conversation over what was actually said and why it was harmful. Just something for us to think about moving forward.

And for anyone interested, this is a good overview of ableism. I'd like to highlight the "What are ablest micro-aggressions?" as this is where many of us struggle.

[link]

And while I'm here and in light of the fact we will not have a thread in which to discuss such things, I'd like to add the following. I think many of us have lost the plot in our hatred of 45 and need some reminders that he is not going to see what you say, but your friends in minority groups will. The last 4 years have been really horrible for all of us, but especially those of us in minority groups watching these sorts of convos happen among supposed friends and allies. There are plenty of despicable things to discuss in re: our current crop of "politicians" without resorting to fat-shaming, ableism, homophobia/transphobia. This is why we are passionate and upset. It's been going on for 4 years.

The following types of statements are offensive and harmful to LGBTQ folks.

"Oh, you just know that anti-gay person is in the closet."**

1. It is basically a slur against gays who are in the closet. People are closeted for many reasons, one being physical/emotional safety. Being in the closet fucking sucks. We don't need to hear supposed-allies making light of it.
2. It lumps in homophobes with actual gay people. Do not equate LGBTQ folks with their bigoted oppressors. Sometimes homophobes are gay, yes, but most of the time? Nope. Stereotypes are never a good look.
3. It is often made as some sort of "joke." Believe me, being gay, in the closet, or dealing with homophobia is no joke. Our lives are often on the line.
4. It is totally meant as an insult to the person they are saying it about. What is the "worst thing" you could say to a homophobe? "You're gay!" HahahahahahahahahaFuckYou.

"He'll get what he deserves when he becomes another guy's prison wife."**

1. Rape jokes? Really?
2. Equating homosexual sex acts with punishment is offensive as hell.

And since the original comments are gone, we can't have a conversation over what was actually said and why it was harmful.

I think this is worth talking about because I honestly don't know - on the one hand, deleting offensive posts prevents them from being read and causing more hurt. On the other hand, it prevents anyone who wasn't online at the time from being able to fully participate in the follow-up (I did not see the thread until half the conversation had been removed, and so while I *think* I understand what happened, I don't feel qualified to weigh in on comments I can't see).