Tep, for whatever it's worth, I didn't think Joker overshadowed the film. For me TDK was a movie of mirrors and reflection. Each character seeing things in others that they didn't want to acknowledge in themselves. Even with more minor characters like Lucius and Jim's partner (whose name I'm blanking on at the moment). About the only character that doesn't hold for is Alfred because he's just so completely serene and secure in who he is and his place in the world.

I like your brain, it's very thinky, and very individual.

My experience of a movie is always dependent on how I feel about the actors involved. I try very hard to be objective about character, but a fondness for or a prejudice against an actor for whatever reason will color my reception of his role in the present movie.

I went into TDK fairly evenly disposed toward Oldman, Bale, and Ledger, even while I was aware this was the last big role Ledger would ever be seen in. Maybe it was all the notoriety surrounding his death, but *to me* it felt as though the whole movie, the whole screen, was steeped in the deadly absurdity of the Joker's mind. That may be because, to a degree, Wayne shares that frame of mind, and in this instance they both fed into that atmosphere.

I did feel that Gordon anchored the film, as the only sane tether for the audience. And the storyline attacked his sanity as his family was threatened. Again, *to me*, the entire film, and the whole cast, was steeped in brilliant dark insanity. And that's a definition that is awfully close to both Wayne and the Joker--the Joker has just fallen, or leapt, or run flat out, farther into it than Bruce, at this point.

And that's purely from *my* POV.

And that's a definition that is awfully close to both Wayne and the Joker--the Joker has just fallen, or leapt, or run flat out, farther into it than Bruce, at this point.

Oh, totally. Batman -- and I'm honestly thinking of him from the comics, not the 2 most recent (Bale et al.) movies -- is a lunatic. He dresses like a giant flying rodent and his entire life is centered on stopping crime in a major city (almost) single-handedly, without any superpowers.

When I say that, people tend to bust out the argument of "he has buckets of money, he's brilliant, trained for years with the best of the best, etc., etc." That's true. He does and did.

Again, I say that to do ALL THAT in order to train/prepare oneself to operate outside the law and beat up criminals makes him a LUNATIC.

Which is why I dig him so much. He is fucked up beyond fucked up. The difference between Batman and the Joker is, essentially, that Batman is on the side of Good and the Joker is on the side of Chaos. That's about it, when you honestly look at it.

That makes me think of Batman as Giles and the Joker as Ethan Rayne.

::points at Sophia::

There you go.

Oh, yeah - love that.

Don't you mean, Ripper instead.

But I'd never seen him play anyone who wasn't in some way morally conflicted or suspect

I'd say that in R&GAD, he's not particularly morally conflicted nor suspect, but rather kind of an innocent fool.

(I've been an Oldman fangirl since Sid and Nancy. It's kind of sad.)

Gary Oldman is in The Unborn ! WTF? So are Idris Elba, Carla Gugino, C.S. Lee, and James Remar. People sure like David S. Goyer.

Well, the Batman movies did raise his star considerably from his Dollman vs. the Demonic Toys days.