I am with Fay on the pheromone issue.

I certainly respect your opinion, I just think that forcing someone to have sex against their will (she clearly was not interested in him) is rape.

he used the stuff on himself rather than on them. And although, yes, it clearly rendered him irresistible in a Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered fashion, and then some, I don't think this is a direct parallel with slipping some girl a date rape drug and then fucking her while she's incapacitated.

So... Spray someone else with a Magic/Alien!Drug that makes them want to sleep with you is date rape, but spray yourself with a drug that makes others want to sleep with you is not? Aren't these simply two different delivery systems with the exact same effect?

Was what Warren did to his ex-girlfriend (forget her name) on Buffy date rape?

I definitely come down firmly on the date rape side of the issue, but I do think it depends on how you see the effects of the drug. If you think, as I do, that the effect was to render the woman and her boyfriend incapable of making their own decision about whether or not to sleep with Owen, essentially rendering them unable to give or refuse consent, then you're likely to think of it as rape. If you think the drug's effect was less about overriding their ability to give consent and more about amplifying their susceptibility to Owen's, er, charms, then you're more likely to think of it as seduction.

That's a good distinction, Kate. The problem, of course, is that it's a slippery slope -- At what point does "amplifying susceptibility" become "removing all free will"? It's tricky enough when you're dealing with alcohol; when you're talking magical alien technology, it's almost impossible to say.

If you think the drug's effect was less about overriding their ability to give consent and more about amplifying their susceptibility to Owen's, er, charms, then you're more likely to think of it as seduction.

true. It would be different if she was waffling, or seemed to be into Owen at all. She basically told him to sod off. I also had a huge problem with him spraying the guy. He's not necessarily bi (and franky, it's not likely), so I think that this would be a huge deal for him. Now, if they had some handwavium that the spray couldn't make you do what you didn't want to do, but that it amplified Owen's charms, I'd feel better about it.

Now, if they had some handwavium that the spray couldn't make you do what you didn't want to do, but that it amplified Owen's charms, I'd feel better about it.

I think the writers probably felt that this handwavium was implied, but personally I would have liked it to have been explicit.

I think the writers probably felt that this handwavium was implied, but personally I would have liked it to have been explicit.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that the show didn't intend this to be a big stumbling block, whereas the reactions from fandom that I saw were generally disgust and horror.

I think the writers probably felt that this handwavium was implied, but personally I would have liked it to have been explicit.

except that she told him to go away at the bar, she wasn't into him at all. In fact, I seem to recall that when she blew him off, he got impatient and just sprayed her.

The problem, of course, is that it's a slippery slope -- At what point does "amplifying susceptibility" become "removing all free will"?

Right, of course, those lines are very blurry. I definitely think the drug had the effect of removing their free will; it seems clear that neither the woman nor her boyfriend had any attraction to him before they got a whiff of the spray, so I didn't see it as taking advantage of a slight pre-existing attraction but as manufacturing one whole-cloth.

I also had a huge problem with him spraying the guy. He's not necessarily bi (and franky, it's not likely)

Well, and I generally agree with you and take your point, but in the Torchwood universe, isn't everyone bi??