Zoe: Is there any way I'm gonna get out of this with honor and dignity? Wash: You're pretty much down to ritual suicide, lambie-toes.

'War Stories'


Boxed Set, Vol. IV: It's always suicide-mission this, save-the-planet that.  

A topic for the discussion of Farscape, Smallville, and Due South. Beware possible invasions of Stargate, Highlander, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect Adult Content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


§ ita § - Aug 25, 2007 9:22:29 am PDT #5792 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I've watched the whole season, so I don't mind.


Dana - Aug 25, 2007 9:28:37 am PDT #5793 of 10001
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

Spoilers for Doctor Who Season 3:

The complaint I remember at the moment is that Martha, her mother, and her sister all end up the season having been in maids' uniforms (Martha in this episode, the mother and sister in the finale). And, um, I don't really remember the rest of it, or I didn't pay attention. Although I think there was some inclination that Martha was less successful with the general audience because she was black.

And that led to people saying things, which led to other people saying "You Americans need to stop imposing your issues on us, because the U.K. doesn't have any problems with racism," which led to disbelieving laughter.


Consuela - Aug 25, 2007 9:38:09 am PDT #5794 of 10001
We are Buffistas. This isn't our first apocalypse. -- Pix

What Dana said. Also, the Human Nature episodes problematized that further, since again with the maid's uniform. And the finale had Martha save the day by... spending a year telling people to think of the Doctor? It's active, but still kind of subservient.

For me, on an individual level, I don't have issues with Martha--I like her a lot, and I really like the way she chose to leave. But I can totally see why people have issues with it.


Fay - Aug 25, 2007 11:10:03 am PDT #5795 of 10001
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.

Huh.

Were these complaints about racism mostly centred in the US fanbase, then, or on both sides of the pond? I'd be interested to know whether Britons found it offensive.

I mean, saying that the UK doesn't have race issues is a no-brainer, but we certainly don't have the SAME race issues, or the same cultural cliches and hot buttons. Black Britons have undoubtedly had plenty of shit to deal with as a visible minority group, but afaik, in the UK it wasn't until The Windrush (1948) that we had many people of colour living here, and although I think they found the reality of Britain a pretty far cry from the advertising, they weren't working as servants to rich families. They were more likely to be in the Forces or the factories. Martha-as-a-maid honestly doesn't ping me any more than Rose-as-a-maid.

I'd be interested to know ita's take on it, as she's lived in both countries.

I'm not trying to be combative, although I think perhaps I may be coming across that way - I haven't seen any of the Martha episodes myself, and I'm just trying to test my understanding.

Is there a general feeling that the Doctor/the showrunners ought to be more careful of Martha's sensibilities/their portrayal of her empowerment because of her skintone? Or would you say that she is generally portrayed, as a character, in a demeaning or racially stereotypical fashion?

(On the subject of smart and adventurous women of colour gadding about in days of yore, can I recommend Mary Seacole's extremely readable autobiography? Bit of a tangent, I know, but I read it in the process of researching her to teach the kids, and she is SO much more entertaining and likeable than Florence Nightingale. It's as much fun as Pride and Prejudice, but with more gobsmacking and wince-inducing moments. She was a hell of a lady.)


§ ita § - Aug 25, 2007 11:10:29 am PDT #5796 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

It would never in a million years occur to me to tie the year Martha spent proselytizing to race. As companions go, she was a damned sight more active and independent than Rose, for instance.

I can see the maid uniform thing, but I'd be most likely to chalk that up to not paying attention. Her family came off as pretty active themselves, when the world wasn't being held hostage. Her mother was anti-Doctor, but that's less embarassing than being chavvy and trying to get into his pants like Rose's mum.


Typo Boy - Aug 25, 2007 12:07:04 pm PDT #5797 of 10001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Incidentally, is the Doctor being half-human canonical within the current TV series? I remember that being set up within the New Adventures, but the NA are NOT canonical for the series as far as I know. I missed a great swathe of episodes so (including all but the first one with Captain Jack).


Tom Scola - Aug 25, 2007 12:09:34 pm PDT #5798 of 10001
Remember that the frontier of the Rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward.

is the Doctor being half-human canonical within the current TV series?

I don't think that's ever been alluded to, either for or against.


Dana - Aug 25, 2007 12:10:47 pm PDT #5799 of 10001
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

I knew just about nothing of Who canon before this, and this is the first I've heard of it.


sumi - Aug 25, 2007 12:13:58 pm PDT #5800 of 10001
Art Crawl!!!

Oh, was it mentioned over here that the names of John Smith's parents are the names of the creators of Doctor Who? I read that over at TWOP.


Typo Boy - Aug 25, 2007 12:20:12 pm PDT #5801 of 10001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

OK, I did not think so.