Smonster just said pretty much what I was going to say.

I'm still confused, I don't know how anyone can go back and look through the entire history of Zoe's posts and not see a pattern of inappropriate behaviour.

I'm not talking about annoying serial posting or her maddening way of mistaking the characters for the actors.

I'm talking about how she was rude to people ---BEFORE they ever were rude to her (because that happened to me). I'm talking about her "gay is icky" posts that offended people, stuff like that.

Askye, I respect you and I know that you feel really strongly about this. That's fair enough, and clearly Kat and others felt exactly the same way about the quote marks conversation. Fwiw, though, I'm staring at this and genuinely not seeing it as aggressive. To the point that I'm gobsmacked that it reads that way to you folks. YMMClearlyV. I mean, I went to look at it when it was cited in Kafka, and I was pretty much brimming with irritation and rather wanting to see the trainwreck and all that because I was cross - but I honestly didn't see that conversation as her being randomly rude. I read the initial "Probably" as a defensive and not-particularly-thought-out reaction, and your "Zoe, Let me take another try at this-- " read to me as very much said with gritted teeth, in a speaking-slowly-and-loudly way, which prompted her to get aggressive in response. I got the impression from her response that this was precisely how she interpreted it - that she was being verbally poked with a stick. And, really, she was, wasn't she? Her grasp of punctuation (etc) isn't good, and this is something that drives a lot of us nuts, so she was being poked with a stick - gently, by Jilli, and less gently by you.

If that isn't how you felt at the time, then I apologise unreservedly. That is how I read it, though, so it's open to being misconstrued.

I'm not convinced that she's attacking people without provocation on the basis of what I've read. I just think she doesn't fit in very well.

People being upset IS a problem. But I'm not seeing her trying to provoke people, so if we're going to take action it will be because she doesn't fit in, rather than that she's not trying to fit in. Imho.

(Stuff like the gushy responses posted in Beep Me a while back, before she finally realised that it wasn't a conversation thread, or the way that she often wraps people up in lots of curly parentheses when they've announced something crappy, the constant use of emoticons - these kind of things say to me that she's trying to fit in, but is operating in a painfully inappropriate way.)

...Hell, might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb: I didn't find her "gay sex is icky" stuff wildly offensive either. Dumb, yes. Wrong, also yes. But many (most?) people equate homosexuality (mistakenly) with anal sex, and find the idea of anal sex (wonders whether to interject with 'mistakenly' at this point, as it would shift the tone to wantonly porny. wishes she knew an HTML tag that would elegantly convey a saucy-but-perhaps-inappropriately comehitherish undertone without wrecking the sentence) revolting. This is actually a pretty mainstream view and, you know, it's understandable. (I was shocked and revolted when I heard that a John Thomas was supposed to get shoved into a Lady Jane in order to make babies, since both these rude bits already had thoroughly unromantic functions. Lots of people still have that incredulous "But it's for poo! Yuck!" response to anything erotic relating to bottoms, so I'm not outraged when I happen across it. It's the sort of thing people think when they don't know any better.)

Moreover Zoe didn't make a joke about children being raped, or equate homosexuality with paedophilia. She really didn't. She followed Anathema's quip about the Watcher's Council "Rites of Passage" with an ill-advised remark about the English Public [by which I mean UK Usage] School system which really wouldn't have raised an eyebrow with anyone I know, gay or straight. See Four Weddings and a Funeral, for example, or Stephen Fry's book The Liar or hosts and hosts of other sources for the commonly-held supposition that teenage lads at all-male boarding schools often experiment with shagging other lads.

So, yeah, she's upsetting people. But no, I don't find her beyond the pale myself, and if I don't say so I'll kick myself. Still, the fact that she's upsetting people is the point.

What makes Zoe so much more than the rest of us that she can get away with constant eitquette violations, piss off dozens of people and yet there are those of you who still want the community as whole to bend over backwards and accomodate her for as long as she's around.

Why does she get that kind of consideration and all the people whose enjoyment of Buffistas.org has plummeted because of her are being told to suck it up and deal?

Nothing makes Zoe so much more than the rest of us. My stance is that if she's upsetting people, then the upsetness of people is a problem. Yes. I was not and am not convinced that she's doing it on purpose, and since that's the case I feel obliged to address the assertion that she is. But if we forget about intent and just concentrate on impact, fine. People are upset.

edited slightly for useless repetition.

Also, I've pointed out previously -- Allyson was chastised in the thread, and she apologized. Spankings are for when you don't comply with the community standards, and Allyson did. If you want to spank her for not being sincerely repentent in her apologies and not caring whether Zoe forgave her or not, well, you won't have my support on that.

We can't go punishing people's intent here, only their actions.

the subsequent conversation in here about how maybe she does have mental problems that make her unable to interact like a normal person -- and that was OK?

Yes. Because after Allyson laid into her and asked if she was mentally unbalanced, if she had brain damage etc, and said she was sorry to be so hurtful but asked if she was seeing a therapist, because she sounded insane, Zoe said "Yes, it is hurtful, and yes, I am", or words to that effect. iirc. But it doesn't matter, because the effect is still damaging if people can't doblerize. They're just as upset as they would be over someone who was malicious.

sits back. wonders whether discretion would have been the better part of valour.

Perhaps Voting Procedures should go in the FAQ?

Working on it. Any volunteers to help me distill 20,000 posts appreciated. We can be a Buffista Law Caucus in deed! We'll run around in circles just like in Alice in Wonderland!

Allyson apologized. That's the important thing to me. We all are going to post things which cross the line on occassion. Allyson had to give me a smackdown for posting gossip and she was right to do so. And I apologized. I don't hink anyone is asking Zoe or possible future problem posters not to fuck up. Or asking that we all agree on just what a fuck-up is. The point is what people do AFTER they fuck up.

I really want to leave this alone for now, and this is a possible x-post, but wrt to the "gay sex is icky" comment specifically, Zoe did apologize as well.

There have been times when she didn't.

I don't understand the meaning of your post, Fay. Could you clarify or expand upon it?

I think, Suela, that the problem is mostly that I admitted that I was, in fact, being malicious, and while I am very sorry that folks other than Zoe were hurt by my words, I am not sorry that Zoe was hurt, because my intent was to smack the crap out of her, and make her feel as bad as she made my friends feel.

It was vigilante justice, and I think that is what makes people really uncomfy. That I still believe that not only what I said was right, but that it made me feel good to do it to her. I knew when I was posting it that I would have to apologize to the board. I weighed the posts against the fallout, and thought that possibly chasing Zoe out was worth whatever happened to me, including a spaking or banning.

And I still think it is unfortunate that it didn't work. I would have gladly taken a three month walk for it. I'll do my time for the crime.

I apologize for being unclear. By 'spanking' I meant that Allyson should have been reprimanded in-thread, which apparently happened. I didn't read that far.

As for the whole mental illness thing, at no point did I mean that we should just ignore her behavior. IF it were true (setting aside for the moment whether or not speculation on that matter is appropriate), it might suggest that a bit of extra patience and a couple of inventive strategies might yield more fruit than excessive discipline. Please note that I have already expressed my approval for an official warning.

To wit: unless you understand how to communicate with him, the deaf blind guy pissing on your shoe in the urinal is going to continue pissing on your shoe. Clumsy metaphor, I know.

I don't see much difference between me speculating that she has problems and others speculating that she is a vicious troll. Since she won't defend herself (I speculate that she's scared shitless of what's going on and is therefore sort of ignoring it), it's all just f-ing speculation. And I agree that that is a major part of the problem.

And with that I'm going dark for a while. Good luck to everyone. If anyone wants to continue discussing with me, profile addy is good.

Thanks for the backing, Fay Jay, it's a bit lonely over here.

t takes a look around, shuts off light and leaves, hugging 1st amendment to her chest.

edited b/c I just can't stop reading. Allyson, what you did seems to me to be harassment by your own definition. That you are proud of it makes me sad.

I had just decided to clarify this with Allyson by private email, but since people are talking about it now, I'll just add that what set me off wasn't so much the truthfulness of her apology, but her later bragging about it in this and other threads.

Let me put an example: if I insult someone else on this board, then apologize, and then, a few days later, I make another post about how much of a badass I am and how witty my comebacks are, am I off the hook?

hugging 1st amendment to her chest.

Whoa. Not ALL speech is protected speech. Lets please remember that.