Yeah, we x-posted, Cindy. Yours was a hell of a lot calmer than mine....

So maybe we need to deal with our consensus process and figure out someway to figure out how a consensus is reached.

A consensus should be clear and obvious. If it's not clear or obvious then it doesn't represent the will of the Buffistas and it shouldn't be used. That's exactly why we have voting. I think it's a mistake to try and explore what makes a consensus too closely.

I understand what y'all are trying to do here. I admire you for trying to formalize the process and making an attempt to debate your respective points of view on this voting business.

That being said, if I read one more post about voting, my head is likely to go 'splodey.

I agree that six months is probably too long for a moratorium, but you guys continue trying to hammer out the process and I'll vote when the time comes. I'm just wondering how the hell am I going to feel when it comes time to vote in meatspace and how many tiny pieces I can rip my voter registration card into?

A consensus should be clear and obvious. If it's not clear or obvious then it doesn't represent the will of the Buffistas and it shouldn't be used.

I think it's a mistake to try and explore what makes a consensus too closely.

The problem with those two statements is that your "clear and obvious" doesn't equal someone else's "clear and obvious".

Cashmere - I think six months is too long, too. But I think what we really need to find out is if most Buffistas think that. My proposal is putting 6 months up for a vote, with no alternatives, just a yea or nay, thing, with a proviso for a gut check at 3 months, should six months pass.

Fuck that noise. Proposer makes the ballot (my ballot would say: 6 moratorium? Y/N. But I'm not the proposer.) and if you don't like it, vote no. Better yet, don't vote, so it won't get a quorum or whatever abbreviation it was we spent weeks bitching at each other over.

I concur. Crafting the ballot in Light Bulb just opens up the whole What's A Consensus Issue. Somebody puts the ballot together as part of their proposal, that is seconded etc. and moved to Bureaucracy.

I am interested in seeing what the community wants and acting on it. That's all.

I like the idea that the proposer should write the ballot, though they should be allowed to refine it after discussion.

I like the idea that the proposer should write the ballot, though they should be allowed to refine it after discussion.

Of course. It's the proposer's ballot to write.

The problem with those two statements is that your "clear and obvious" doesn't equal someone else's "clear and obvious".

Yes. This.

Also this:

I tend to think of the greater community good. The Buffistas were here before I got here, and they'll probably still be here if I decide leave. Having said that, in this thread I've sensed a proprietary attitude toward this community that I find disquieting. I want it so I should have it" shouldn't be a valid defense when this many people are involved, because we are a we. We need purposes, benefits, pros and cons. Will it break the site? Will it bring in trolls? Will it really hurt for people to skip war discussion in natter like Hecubus-in-a-dirndl skips cat talk?

If a significant portion of Buffistas wanted something, it usually happened. If a significant portion did not, then it didn't. That was how it was done in the past, and it seemed to work well enough from my naïve perspective. I guess I was another Buffista who didn't realize we had a lot of members who weren't in favor of the process that was in place.

And this:

It seems like tere are 2 things voting could help, and they are things that I and I thing other people were irritated with/frustrated with-- closed discussion and clear decision. And the other stuff really doesn't matter.

Perhaps we don't discuss crafting the ballot-- perhaps the proposer crafts the ballot and if we don't like it, we say no.

And Sophia, I'm really sorry that since you took on the role of proposer that so much of the bullshit has seemed like it was centering on you.

I am interested in seeing what the community wants and acting on it. That's all.

This is the prize on which we must affix our eyes. Really. Buffistas, together, WILL make the best decision. Really.