But please remember even if people are new here, they're not (hopefully) new to living among the human race. Of course you can say things to someone you've known a long time that a relative stranger could not say. I think a newbie should go to any community equipped with that basic bit of social knowledge.

I t heart Cindy.

...and now we've moved on to bad puns, which is both an integral part of the community and very, very silly.

Anyway. I think it's an important distiction between Rob and S that Rob apologized when asked, and S not only refused to apologize but went on to insult more people and denied the possibility that he may have offended at all. That, and the fact that we're all quite on edge because of ther recent influx, and on the defensive because of the recent suspension of mieskie, made a relatively minor incident blow up like Sunnydale High.

So what can we do to avoid this in the future? I think we might need a group Doblerization, to keep already-frayed tempers from flaring, and I think we need to remain polite, refrain from personal attacks, and try to clear up misunderstandings with a minimum of fuss.

And, for the record, I hope no new posters feel like they don't belong , or have been excluded in any way. I've seen a couple of posts start with things like "I'm not sure if my opinion counts because I'm new..." and that should absolutely not be the case. If you're willing to act like a part of the community, you should expect to be treated like one.

Thanks, Holli. You're a wise woman.

I think we might need a group Doblerization

I also t heart Holli.

...and now we've moved on to bad puns, which is both an integral part of the community and very, very silly.

Now I know I'm in the right place.

I have seen people reacting more strongly to certain posts than I ever would. I would not have been offended; clearly others were. My point the entire time has been with the response to offended parties.

The few times I've been able to respond to a post that offended me in a timely fashion (the curse of being a late night poster is that the discussion often begins and ends before I can get my $0.02 in) I try (I hope I try) to ask the poster for clarification, and then I explain my opposition to their position. If the response of the initial poster is to call me oversensitive, I don't think that's condusive to adult discussion.

Going way back to before I had to go to work -- perhaps my definition of "gossip" is not the same as Betsy's. Her example, of friends discussing minor annoyances caused by other friends while everyone is still friends, is healthy social behavior, yes. What I think of as gossip is less healthy -- to me gossip is mean and directed at the Other, which in this context might be newbies. I don't think of Betsy as mean or exclusive, so I was taken aback. I understand her meaning a little better now, I think. Not to say that I love the idea of Buffistas talking about other Buffistas behind their back, but I suppose talking is not necessarily talking smack.

I wouldn't be here if Buffistas weren't in general very genial people, easy to get along with. This is why things like mieskie's arrival bother me. I suppose I reacted less to the content of his posts (although I found him tiresome and, at least on a couple of occassions, offensive) than to the fact that people were avoiding the thread because of him. I want to maintain the friendly tone as much as possible. At times it isn't possible, and at times there are people making waves whom I think should know better. But then I know that I've posted while cranky at times and said things I shouldn't have.

As for Schmoker, I chimed in with others when he made the panties comment to Shawn because a) I thought it was rude and after mieskie I told myself to speak up when I thought someone wasn't respecting our community standards, nebulous though they might be, and because b) like Hec I'm convinced that Schmoker and mieskie are the same person. I think b) may have been influencing other people's reactions as well, but I could be wrong.

To all: if you can't prove b), back off of b).

It's not fair otherwise.

All right, that's fair.

If Hec says the same thing, and i'd go postal.

Note to self: don't mention Allyson's toenails

This has been a very interesting discussion since I last posted. And I feel some relief that I wasn't directly involved (as with my Diet-talk-derailment, or pushing for the music thread / thread proliferation / Natter's Overwhleming talks).

Until this discussion started to crystalize the notion, I haven't really thought in terms of Newbies vs. Old timers. Because as far as I'm concerned, you're all fucking newbies to me! t /fake snarl

Actually, I vividly remember active recruitment drives to bring more people into the fold. I like the recent additions, you know? I love Cindy and cashmere and Deena and Paul and Am-Chau and Wolfram and Gleebo and...shit, it's dangerous to start naming names because then somebody feels excluded. But I like all these new people a lot and I'm glad they've come aboard.

During the diet-derailment discussion, Kat noted that I seemed like I was annoyed with Natter lately. I had to think about it and I think it's itchiness over the changes that have happened. I had to accept those changes, which included higher volume, and also occasionally feeling like I couldn't find an on-ramp into the traffic.

I don't think this discussion has been about nothing. People are vocalizing their anxiety about the fact that something has changed. I don't think things have changed the way MM has characterized it - but I do think we're seeing friction because we used to be able bring peoplee around to our wavelength and tone. And it hasn't been possible to really brainwash, uh...orient people as we once did because it was such a large influx.