I hope you understand why that sort of discussion takes place here rather than in the substantive threads, Mike. As it was, I felt that a lot of insubstantive discussion took place in the Firefly thread in response to M's posting, and people who read the threads solely for show-specific discussion would have wandered off in disgust or discomfort.

We realized early on that we needed a Bureaucracy thread in order to keep the administrative stuff out of the way but still publicly accessible to anyone interested. Consider this the "Community Access" channel of buffistas.org. *grin*

repeated mischaracterizations of Mieskie's posts

How am I mischaracterizing "Piss you off again later"?

The objection, made consistently and by people other than me*, was not to the content of Mieskie's posts, but to the manner of them.

This has, historically, been a place where we could disagree agreeably. Where people could say "I appreciate your position, but I'm not going to agree to it." We don't object to argument, far from it. We do object to deliberate confrontation for the sake of pushing buttons.

* By which I mean, I'm not the only one who objected. I certainly did object.

While Mieskie was abraisive at times, I feel that many (not all) who responed to him were equally abraisive and insensitive.

I didn't see this, Mike. While m. did post some thought-provoking pieces, when it came to discussion, he seemed incapable of handling anything other than total agreement without descending into name-calling. I think, considering how he introduced himself to the board, that most folks were remarkably restrained in how they interacted with him. YMMV.

I'm sorry you're disturbed by how this was handled. As you've probably read here, you're not the only one left with bad feelings from this episode. But IMO the bad feelings stem from m. himself.

Good point about not knowing about this discussion, Mike. I do think that moving the post-mortem from the Firefly thread to here is a good idea, but it may also be a good idea to post a link to this thread for people who didn't see (or know about) the discussion over here.

Good point about not knowing about this discussion, Mike.

Yeah, in retrospect, I probably should have referenced the Bureaucracy thread when I posted the notice in the Firefly thread.

Suela, I agree wholeheartedly that having a seperate place for these discussions is absolutely necessary. I just didn't know that this discussion was going on here. :) Betsy, I meant (or mean!) no personal attacks whatsoever in any of my posts and apologise if any come off that way. I agree that the statement taken on it's own id quite inflammatory. However, the way I read it in the context of the ongoing discussion was M expressing frustration (using an 'unusual' sense of humour combined with poor socialization skills) over a discussion where everything he said seemed to be pissing people off. Yes, apologies would have defused the situation mightily, and no, he didn't give them. I do however still feel that many of the responses and reactions to his posts only served to feed the flires of dissent rather than calming the situation.

Betsy, I meant (or mean!) no personal attacks whatsoever in any of my posts and apologise if any come off that way

No, no, far from it. I responded personally to a general criticism, and that wasn't wise.

... I believe that one reason no one went over to the Firefly thread and said, by the way, we're debating mieskie over here, c'mon and tell us what you think is so that we who'd already known about the thread-- that is to say, already-established Buffistas, or new people who had the initiative to take a look at the Buffista threads beyond Firefly, which sort of means people interested in the Buffistas a community rather than just one thread-- could talk about it semi-privately. Which is sort of a Big Kids, core, "real" Buffistas sort of thing to do. But it felt kind of necessary, and not *too* horrible, as anyone who *was* interested could find the link very easily.

And no one posted a link to here in the Firefly thread.

Okay, I finally read the mieskie posts linked to. I'm of two minds. It's pretty clear to me that on any other board more liberal than UltimateWedding.com, they would not be a big deal. It seems like a pretty typical Internet tone to me -- not the kindest thing in the world, but he wasn't calling us all fuckheads, either. I think most of his comments read more gently in context than they did as relayed to this thread -- he seems a bit boneheaded, but not impossible to talk to or illiterate or, you know, crazy, in the manner of a true troll. (OTOH, I've never even seen Firefly -- space shows don't interest me and I'm never home Friday nights, so I care only inasmuch as I want ME to succeed. So he's not really posting about something I care about to start with.)

But. You guys have been very clear since back when we were on TT that you do not want a "typical Internet tone." You/We have historically valued kindness extremely highly, and he was told that several times. I don't think the banning was out of place.

Mike P, I can understand your feelings. But I also can say that I personally posted to mieskie when he called an ex-ME employee a dork by stating that I understood he considered his posting style "unique" and that some folks may not get his humor, but I politely told him that that kind of thing was frowned upon here. I got no response from him. I also saw that in one case, when his blantantly crude humor received no response (and I suspect more than one poster simply saw that particular and left the thread in disgust) he mistook the appalled silence for tacit approval. Then people started to resort to "engagement" to let him know that some of the community was less than thrilled with his behavior. I saw all three tactics used, but I don't think there was any real way to deal with this issue and NOT give people uncomfortable feelings.

This postmortem could go on forever and ever. Suffice it to say that I agree with the decision and can't feel sorry for someone who just couldn't take either subtle hints or direct warnings to heart.

edited for clarity.