it's just that up until now, Mary Sue has covered both, generally, depending upon the fandom.

I'm not sure why you'd need another word for it.(except I've seen male ones called Gary or Larry Stu)*cough* Jack Ryan* cough

fic! Willow meeting geeks

She looked at Jonathan. "So what brings you two out in the middle of the night? To the cemetery? With crowbars?"

Jonathan and Andrew stared at each other, then at their crowbars, then back at Willow.

"Um . . ." Andrew started.

"Live action role playing," Jonathan said.

Willow blinked. "Excuse me?"

"Yeah, like Dungeons & Dragons."

"I know what a LARP is." She looked them over doubtfully. "So what are your characters?"

Andrew perked up. "We're brave adventurers in a modern-day setting, in a world populated by dark and dangerous creatures, where mystic powers and arcane rituals are the keys to power beyond understanding."

Willow blinked again. "You said that all in one breath." He shrugged in bashful pride. "Dark and dangerous . . ." She glanced out into the shadowy cemetery, considered the contents of the bag she was carrying, and decided not to explore any further the boundary between role-playing and the real world. "So what are you doing here?"

Jonathan fielded this one. "There's an artifact inside we're supposed to get."

"I don't think you're supposed to do any actual breaking and entering in LARPs. Besides, there's nothing interesting in the Du Lac crypt--except what's left of the Du Lacs, of course."

"There isn't?" Jonathan frowned. "How do you know?"

"Um, well . . ." Wait a minute, she wasn't the one who had just been caught committing desecration. "It's something Buffy dealt with a few years ago. We closed it up afterwards, there's nothing interesting there, now." She smiled cheerfully.

Jonathan and Andrew looked at each other uneasily. "The, um, game master said we had to check the place out," Jonathan said.

"Well, then you can tell him you ran into a wandering witch with local knowledge who said not to bother." She continued smiling in her best "I'm only here to help" manner.

Andrew fidgeted with his crowbar. "Our gamemaster was really sure something interesting is in here."

Willow was starting to get curious about this gamemaster. "What's supposed to be in there?"

Jonathan smacked Andrew's arm, making Andrew wince. "If you say nothing's in there, then you're probably right. You're certainly one with the local knowledge, Willow. Come on, Andrew, we've got other places to check tonight." He began tugging on Andrew's arm. "Good night, Willow, be careful out here."

"Stop pulling!" Andrew protested, but he followed Jonathan into the shadows.

Willow debated following them, but she had an appointment she was already nearly late for.

I think Canon Sue is like a Willow Sue or Xander Stu -- taking a real character from the show's 'verse and making him/her a perfect avatar for the author.

I think Canon Sue is like a Willow Sue or Xander Stu -- taking a real character from the show's 'verse and making him/her a perfect avatar for the author.

That's what I thought when I heard the term. I've seen it in fandoms ranging from Sailor Moon to C.S.I., and it is a truly vile phenomenon. In my experience, Canon Sues:

• Have some wonderful talent or ability that they have--for no good reason--kept hidden from the rest of the show's characters, and presumably the show's writers as well.

• Are able to keep other secrets equally well, including but not limited to: a spouse and four sprogs that none of the other characters know exist, not even after five seasons; doctorate degrees in obscure subjects; painful pasts that make "Flowers in the Attic" look like "The Waltons" by comparison; and second jobs that can range from nightclub singer to astronaut.

• Will, if secondary characters, emit strange rays that somehow turn the title characters into raging, irrational, one-dimensional assholes.

• Tend to invade crossovers with other fandoms, so that the characters from the other fandom can appreciate, love, and respect the Canon Sue in ways that the characters from the original series never could.

• Manage to lose all psychopathic, anti-social, and annoying behaviors that they have exhibited on the show. In the interest of maintaining parity, however, these traits will be assigned to other characters in direct proportion to the author's disdain for said characters.

• Often sustain horrible, horrible physical and psychological trauma, so that the other characters will finally realize just how much the Canon Sue means to them. In extreme cases, the Canon Sue will actually commit suicide, but there is a fair to middling chance that a convenient resurrection will take place.

• Like to have badly written sex with the author's second-favorite character, or better yet, with an original Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

I've never done that, have I? Cause with some of these people, it would be easy-peasy, huh?(Yes, I was thinking about Kay Howard...how could you tell? Or Timmy.) My Munchkin is not sweet enough for such treatment...which makes him the most like me, actually. Some people whitewash him a lot(all of his exes=heartless bitches)

I've never done that, have I?

Far from it! Your Kay very much remains Kay all throughout your story.

When Tim came to, he found himself being smacked around by the two male vampires, while the female watched. Despite her apparent glee, Bayliss felt sure she was meant for better things.Spike looked into Tim's face and said "You know, you're bloody useless, but kind of fun to play with. I can see why my girl likes you."

Maybe this guy was giving Frank motivational tips. Tim tasted blood from a cut above his lip, and pondered what to say next. "Um, thank you?"

"No sweat, mate. And you really get under Angelus' skin...I have to let you live. Brass him off royally, that will. But if he gets to you first, you're dead. I don't protect people."

"Sometimes it's not that great," Tim admitted.

Drusilla began to whine like a homicidal puppy. "Ok, one lick, but no kissing."

Her cold tongue was surprisingly appealing. OK, Bayliss, he told himself, that's one you take to the grave.

Jeffrey Dahmer: Thanks, Anne. Otherwise she'd be Mary Kay, huh? Nice pink Cavalier... Cause sometimes we've got opinions in common...but seriously, Bayliss Canon Sues dominate something chronic(I kind of understand...I want to look out for Timmy too, but Jeez.)..My least fave Bayliss fic thing bar none is when people write about the abuse as child!Timmy, which isn't really relevant to this discussion, but child voices are hard and most people can't do it(from what I've seen)

Lyra, that was a good breakdown, I think.

erika, the concept of Spike letting Bayliss live to annoy Angel is a thing of beauty. True to that season's Spike.

So, now, does vampMunch come in and smack Dru and liberate Timmy?